05/2016 Brainstorming Thread

edited May 2016 in Everything else
I thought it'd be good to start a general brainstorming thread regarding new Grinds. For this thread in particular focus on generating ideas with a balance between speculation and being realistic. It's ok to shoot out ideas here without significant evidence.. i.e. can we make gills? I'd say it's unlikely but perhaps it'd be lucrative to bounce such an idea around. On the other hand, avoid H+ bullshit like uploading etc. unless you've got some fantastic idea about making it happen. 


  • I'll start this off with a writing prompt. I think the way most Grinds come to be is via finding something preexisting and grabbing on to it. For example, my NIR project basically started after I read some article about the US Navy doing something similar during WWII. The Eye Drops were based on a preexisting patent and some articles regarding vision in deep sea fish. This isn't a criticism but rather identifying the process. So.. there are two conclusions I can draw from this:

    1. We should be working as a community keeping up to date on research which we may bend to our purposes. This could be accomplished via a Journal meetup.. basically each person chooses a journal article and reports back to the community regarding things they think might have potential.

    2. We should also be working from a ground up approach by identifying needs/wants and then trying to figure out ways to accomplish these needs/wants.

    Addressing the second, there is so much possible that it might be useful to use specific filters in order to think about what we might want to do. For this thread, I suggest we use the "Universal Self-Care Requisites." These are actually from a nursing theory developed by Dorthea Orem. I'm not a big fan to be honest, but I think the list gives us something to work with. These are the requisites:

    1. the maintenance of sufficient intake of air, food, and water
    2. provision of care associated with the elimination process
    3. a balance between activities and rest
    4. a balance between solitude and social interaction
    5. prevention of hazards to human life and well-being
    6. promotion of human functioning

    As you can see, these are general enough that we can probably fit nearly anything under each category. Cognitive filters like this aren't a reflection of reality but rather a means by which to perceive it. The map is not the territory. I figure we can start a new brainstorming thread each quarter or month or something using a different filter. For example we can do a list of the senses (not just 5, I'm talking about at the receptor level), or a list of the organs, or a list of organ systems. We can use communication models like Communicator, Reciever, Interpreter etc.
  • So my loose ideas to throw out:

    1. Air/Food/Water:
    How about Micro-biospheres? We try to figure out the minimum size unit containing a number of specific organisms to produce the biomass needed to feed/maintain a person. Basically, could we make greenhouses that only need sunlight and produce everything we need? Obviously, there are issues.. I'm not going to stay stuck inside so every dump, piss, exhale, sweat etc. is a loss of mass.. What critters/greens are the least efficient? Can we gene mod them to increase efficiency? Can we do some of the needed transformation of material chemically rather than biologically to increase efficiency? Would we increase efficiency through tech? Like careful modulation of temp and light with solar panels and arduinos?

    2. Elimination Process: Enemas and Colonics.. do they have a role in Grinding? Ok, so enemas are unsual in the healthcare field now. They are primarily used to treat constipation, BUT they used to be super common. The rectum is large semi-permiable membrane. An enema can be used to rehydrate a person with nearly the same efficiency as an IV. Also, drugs absorbed through the mucous membrane don't get a first pass through the liver.. this is why people die from alcohol enemas etc. Would taking nootropics up the asshole make them more effective (enough that it would be worth it). Coffe enemas are pretty fantastic. Also, there are "detox" programs that advise crap like an enema a day for 30 days. Is there any evidence this is really "good". (Most things labeled detox are bs.)

    3. Activity and Rest: This is obvious to me... a Grinder version of Polyphasic sleep. Polyphasic sleep is ok. I did it for 6 months at a total of 2 hours per night. There are some things about it I like, but there are some serious downsides as well. Plus, there is a ton of research about the importance of sleep. For example, night shift workers don't live as long. BUT, it's been found that supplementing with melatonin can moderate how rough it is on the body. (I read this somewhere but as this is being written loosely I'm not giving a source yet). Can we make a version of polyphasic which lives up to the promise of minimal downtime with increased cognitive ability? How? Ok, supplementation.. melatonin vs. seratonin. The cautious use of stimulants. Meditation. Sensory deprivation. Binaural Beats. tDCS?

    4. I think my phone fucks me. I check it all the time. I waste time playing on it. I think it'd be way better if I just checked it like 3 times a day or something. Or at least had some kind of plan regarding its use rather than demonstrating kind of compulsive behaviors playing with it. Perhaps we could outline something.. even just an app to check how often we fuck with our devices and the amount of time we are on them. Perhaps we could make some kind of app to increase efficiency? Also, meditation. I bring this up as there are studies regarding increased cognitive function following certain types. It might just be a period of solitude does the same thing. Like Gardening instead of yoga or something.

    5. Prevention of Hazards: I'd really like to see some externals that interact with our internals. One of these could be a security system. Kind of like the dead drop magnetic field thing.. we could make a device that you place close to where you sleep.. maybe under mattress or something. It could receive data from your doors and windows or even a motion detector and then pulse magnetic waves to alert you while you sleep. Seems like an easy thing to do and marketable.

    6. Promotion of human functioning: Well, if we ever get a new site... I think it might be good to actually make a Nootropic Wiki. Yes, I understand that there are tons and tons of resources out there. Reddit and whatnot. I'm not looking to replace that or anything but nootropics and cognitive enhancers are not going away in the community. I think we could make a very concise dry wiki. If people want experiences and such go somewhere else perhaps.. but the wiki could give a bunch of basics from places like Physician Desk Reference, actual journal articles etc, and links to other sites that we think have done good writeups. I think it could simply be a Grid with the listed sources, the claim, and a rating of the level of support. Piracetam - Bob's Racetam Study - Claims increased verbal memory - 5 (cause n=50k people).
  • 1) I love this idea and I would be down for working on it with you to optimize the size of everything.

    4) we could make an app that locks your phone and can only be unlocked a set number of times a day. The is the main reason that I have been working on so many bluetooth devices for your phone, so you can still get all of the data but without leaving the real world to do it.
  • So a Microbiosphere:
    We'd need to break this down into smaller projects. The first I think should be waste processing.
    Here's a thing:

    It's a food composter that does its job in like 24 hours from what I understand. Types of waste we should consider:
    Liquid - Urine, Greywater (like from sinks etc.)
    Food and loose biowaste like plant matter - easily composted.
    Feces, meats, and complex fats - these are difficult. You don't mix with other compost as stuff like shit is very slow to compost generally and you want possibly more than a year before reintroduction into soil etc. Also.. it's a possible vector of parasites and disease.

    So project one: Urine processing. We could look at the specific bacteria that do commonly do this. I forget the details right now, but I know there are multiple steps yielding things like ammonia etc. Maybe we could make a vessel that has multiple chambers and a nice healthy culture of each bacteria type for each stage. Piss enters chamber one and a few drips hits the piss. The chamber is at the optimal temp and conditions for that species. Then it passes to chamber two and so on. We could look at useful chemical yields as well. For example, is there a use for ammonia in our chamber? How hard would it be to seperate out? (Not very.)
    Can we process urine to drinkable water via a method like this? Of course, we could alternatively set up a solar still system to reclaim the water. What do we do with the dried piss? What are the exact constituents?
    Basic goals: No outside supply type products... unless it's going to be yielded from some other thing in the greenhouse.
  • edited May 2016
    Oh hey. Dried urine is a great source of nitrogen. We could totally grow algae flushes with it. Algae is great as a source of biomass.
    @Glims - this is a project I would consider working with you on. Consider this to be me reaching out. Accept it or don't; however, I recognize this as a project you'd be enthusiastic about. 
  • edited May 2016
    Ok, so basically we need a thread for this if people want to get involved. Ben, do you have any brainstorming stuff pop into your head from the prompts? 
  • I have this, it has kinda snowballed....

    So I read this: 

    I read more into her research and I am wondering if we can make a pill with magnets as described in the article? I am think that this could possibly work for deep brain mapping and more surgical neurostimulation. Leading me to my next point could we possibly make artificial neurons that are microcomputers encased in diamond that would adhere to the brain tissue and fire when appropriate. (Read not a clue as to when these should fire :P) but non the less be man made and non invasive implanted neurons. 

    John Doe

    As for the magnet pill, I have a concern about causing man made blood clots and how these magnets would handle being digested. I am sure this will not be the most out there thing any one will suggest.

    John Doe
  • edited May 2016
    well as long as were brainstorming new grinds that may or may not be potentially be possible either in the future, near future, or today (regardless of expense) here are some of the ideas that have been springing around my head, and i'd just like to preface that these ideas are likely not exactly possible for a majority of the grinding community, if at all.

    1) better organs (somehow...) (probably not exactly able to be done by the average grinder lol or at all) 
     upgrading organs somehow by adding to there own bio structure essentially "creating" a new more efficient or stronger body part either through 3d printing an artificial organ structure and adding to it through alternate technology (of some sort that would have to be bio safe) essentially creating a new organ and then adding the "Grinder" or "Patients" own cells to it for implantation, ooor decellularizing an organ for impantation (such as a pig heart that would then be recellurized with human cells. (gotta plug the thought emporium for getting me thinking about those!!!!!)) and then adding to the organ either while you recellurize it or after before implantation (wouldn't exactly know how you would do this though...)

    2) ok this is honestly more of a thought project then anything else but iv'e been thinking alot about upgrading our nervous system speed and how that would work (now im not sure entirely how our nervous system works so i may be entirely off the mark here so if im entirely wrong and this isn't possible or even realistic at ANY point in the future then meh its just a thought experiment anyways) 
    iv'e been thinking alot about graphene lately as i heard it was bio proof so if theirs some way of integrating it into our nervous systems structure without critically ruining it (eg making someone paralyzed) would it not allow for electrons to flow faster along it? (obviously would need specialized machinery and not something that couldn't be done without extreme high tech) and the brain would maybe* (*im not sure again, not exactly too to familiar with the brain or nervous system, But i would love to learn more!) be able to react faster to the signals it receives, it may not be even that noticeable if at all. probably honestly better to just speed up the brain but that would reguire taking it apart which isin't exactly possible... unless were talking about uploading to a computer of sorts but then its not your brain anymore and noooow im off topic 

    3) ok this is likely the "most doable" of these honestly (still a bit well extreme and "slightly" unrealistic for the average grinder but again these ideas are pretty much thought experiments) iv'e been looking into a gene called pepck-c (which codes for the pepck-c enzyme) in relation to humans and mice, and it seems that when told through genetic modification to be over expressed (in the case of the mice i believe they had 100 times more pepck-c enzyme in their muscles) it caused them to use "fatty acids" for energy and produce "less lactic acid" and can run for far far longer while also being far more active then an ordinary mouse. they also eat twice as much and seem to be slightly more... agressive? the researchers couldn't figure out why exactly and my running "hypothesis" is maybe due to there overactive nature the mice had become inpatient and more interested in doing things right then and there which may have caused them to act in such a way. (look up the metabolic supermice to find out more about that i guess) anyways the whole point to that gigantic paragraph of text is that im wondering if that gene works the exact same way in humans? (i read up on it and it does seem to be relate to our metabolic rate in some way but i couldn't find exactly how or why) my VERY long winded point here is do you think that sometime in the future this could be tested (preferably somehow without using an actual human so we could test if this would have similar or the same effects?) either a genomic modification could be made to access this sort of a thing in humans through pepck-c? or do you believe that a "drug" could be made to induce these property's or similar ones within someone? (this would likely work synergisticly for a myostatin edit for "peak human fitness") 

    Sorry this post was so godamn long, ignore this post or just use it for food for thought if non of these are viewed at this point in time as possible   

  • @Arkon

    1. Re: cellularizing organs etc. Agreed. Essentially we need a mammalian cell lab setup for this. I was inching towards it but I'm not sure if I'm going to commit. It's rather pricey; however, tons of potential.

    2. Brainstorming is good. In this case though, I think that you need to refine your idea and do a bit of research. For the most part, the nervous system is only electrical in the strictest of senses. It's really not like a conductive wire and electrons aren't being passed along from atom to atom.
    The reason we say it's electro-chemical.. and no I'm not going to try to be exhaustive here.. is each neuron has a process by which they keep a lot of negative things inside and pump positive things outside. When the neuron "fires" there is a big change with positive and negative things moving around. This is the "electrical" part. This change in voltage travels damn fast too! Saltatory conductance can travel as fast as 150 m/s.
    I'm not saying this can't be improved on.. electricity travels at 2.998e+8 m/s so if you could somehow make this a strictly electrical event..

    3. Gene Mods. Yikes. Yeah, also need a whole lot of lab to work with. In this case you'd need both the modified gene and vector by which to place it. I really do think the recent Bioviva thing is pretty awesome but gene mod stuff is still a tad scary. I'd personally prefer a mixture between your idea 1 and 3. Basically, can we make an implant to express certain enzymes? The one you discussed probably wouldn't be a candidate because you'd really need those genes in the active cells. You'd want lysis of fatty acids occuring in say muscle cells or something I think.

    Not trying to shoot down ideas here. I'm just discussing to open further dialogue.
  • @Johndoe

    Crazy. Ok, so do we have any actual journal articles written by these authors? Unfortunately, I think Sci-hub is down and I can't get it now.

    While TMS is really promising and awesome, has anyone ever done anything with peripheral magnetic stimulation? Because this we can do easily. I'm not ready to crack open anyones head but I would install peripheral magnet near nerve cell bodies.
  • edited May 2016
    1. how pricey exactly are we talking? / do you have any resources on recellurization you know of that you can link me too? 

    2. well i have another idea to do with this that is different, are we able to make synthetic nerve tissue at this point? / are we able to join and create new nerve pathways if we have the tissue? specifically motor neurons, i looked a little more into the nervous system and yeah it seems quite hard to upgrade how fast it is due to the fact that it is mostly made up of chemical signals and there changes in polarity (like you said) but i ask the above because i had another idea to do with the nervous system,
    for prosthetics would we be able too make synthetic or "recellurize" (i say recellulize but i really mean 3d printing nerve structures and implementing our own nerve tissue or cells) nerves to intergrate into a bio/mechanical arm or other body part that needs to have some form of control or feeling
    this way we would effectivly be able to copy our own nerve paths within say an arm but modify it to the point where it instead of interfaceing with muscle and other well arm cells, it would work with the prosthetic instead?

    3. so instead of a gene mod have some form of implant that has drug type compounds or even just the enzymes themselves if they would give the desired effect when used through said implant?
    adding onto this do you think this sort of implant could be intergrated into a prosthetic? (prosthetics have been on my mind lately) essentially an auto injector that has the desired compound within which will also allow for refills being inserted into the arm itself 

    4. new idea for the far far far far faaaar future as the default version isin't even out yet, implantable contact lens based on the newest google designed lens but to replace the lens within the eye itself (like implantable contact lenses made to replace peoples biological leneses who have been clouded by cataracts), course it would need to be wirelessly powered somehow (just like the regular version) and configured to display properly within the actual eye itself instead of how it would display on top of the idea like again the normal theoretical version

  • The recellularization process is mostly costly because you need to have the systems to culture, maintain, and differentiate stem cells.
    This ends up being a steady supply of liquid nitrogen for storage and an incubator with a steady supply of co2 for growth. Then you need a biosafe hood to deal with them, and medium to help them grow and differentiate.
    This is just a rough outline. Think of them as very expensive, very fragile puppies. 

    Scihub.cc is a working address. I'd hunt the papers but I'm on a crummy chromebook atm
  • Glims~
    thanks for giving me an explanation on the process and showing (in laymans terms) how much a project like that would cost (very expensive), i appreciate it 
  • edited May 2016
    i read on my flipboard a while ago that re-cellularizing has already been done, they took a human heart from a donor, stripped all the connective tissues of the donors cells away and using what i remember they called a "3-D bioprinter" to put the receivers cells into the heart and get it beating again, which is actually quite astounding, but this brings up a slew of issues, for one thing, connective tissues needs maintenance, as we age and DNA mutations increase, the ability of our cells to maintain these tissues are damaged and our cells ability to repair them slowly fails (which is why we get wrinkles as we age), so my question with that is, will a transplant receiver be able to repair the connective tissues of a donors heart? 

    heres a wiki article about that process:

    also, sorry if i shot down your idea, wasn't my intention.
  • @cassox
    I like idea #5, I think it could be a great invention and could definitely generate a lot of revenue for funding future projects, especially with the whole "connected home" revolution that's currently taking place, I'm willing to work with others on that to possible get it to the mass market, the only obstacle i see is that instead of getting people to implant magnets (since the general population hasn't caught onto grinding yet), it would have to be able to link into a wearable such as a fitbit or smartwatch, an easier option would be to create this for ourselves, and to create a magnetic bracelet that regular non-implanted people could wear to sleep that would vibrate and alert them or just have something that shakes the whole bed to wake people up( my sister has a bed that massages, but it basically vibrates the whole bed) We could also connect it to the internet or cellular network to receive emergency alerts about impending storms, or tie it into the earthquake alert system that's in california; currently, it gives people about 15 seconds warning, but that's enough to wake up and switch on a light and be aware of anything that may fall on to your head during an earthquake, or wake up your bed mate or make it halfway down the hall to your kids.

    anyways thats one of my brainstorming ideas.
  • I agree that number 5 does sound very feasible. I might suggest if you want a platform to work with for automation try wink. they have the most open system for adding devices with the most responsible prices.

    I think the wearable would work brilliantly maybe even add in a sleep monitoring or alarm clock ability so people have a little bit more push then the simple "it just wakes me up in an emergency.."

  • @cassox
    That's the idea behind the magnet pill that could be guided in/around the brain. There by non invasive, matched with a massive amount of data storage I see a limitless future.... Plus B2B communications.... After 4cm of penitration into the brain there's no benefit right, just stuff vital to life beyond that right? I will do some digging on the journals.

    John Doe
  • no magnet pills in the brain please. that'll get you killed. the whole point of my nanobots is to do exactly that without the brain damage. Magnetic things in your brain, drag and drop chemicals to wherever you want. can't do information stuff yet but I haven't had much time to work on this. 
  • I should be surprised but I am not.... May I ask how you are making them I have 80$ a week to play with. I know it's not a lot but I am making it work.... Slowly be it but still.... Is your problem in processing data, or that you can't figure out how to stimulate the brain based off of the current task(s)?

    John Doe
  • It'll be a bit before I can actually start pursuing it actively, but I'm working on a neuro-interface. I'm having to teach myself a bunch of stuff about infrared optics and lasers, and it's coming along slowly. If anyone has a experience with liquid lenses(Or infrared lenses in general), lasers, and the like, I'd welcome any tips, info you have.

    As far as those nanobots, how accurate can you get with magnetic fields? 
  • You can ask, doesn't mean I'll tell you XD Got a patent to protect. 

    The nice thing about the system is you don't need to be accurate with the magnets. Although I'm working on a way to be (hallbach arrays and such). You need to be accurate with the signal you give them and that's easy to do. Focus ultrasound to a point so only the particles at the tip are affected (there are dozens of ways to control them, this is just one option). Same thing they did with that microbubble thing. The magnets just get the particles into the general vicinity. 
  • edited May 2016
    How long do you think they will stay in the blood stream? I may not be the best here but I am willing to help if you want me to.
  • For number 6, I think we forgot the good ole tdcs.
  • edited July 2016
    hello, i had an idea to brainstorm...
    this company here http://www.btech.com.tr/ BTech innovationbydesign successfully added a partial jaw plate to help a turtle eat, it was 3-d printed.

    i was wondering how possible it is to do an entire jaw/mouth on a human, teeth and everything, 3-d printed, bionic, hydraulic whathaveyou, maybe graphene-coated steel or some other metal, is this a real possibilty at the moment? or is that farther out of the reach of what can be done right now?
  • They already replace some people jaws with implants. Usually it's after a bad accident.
  • @Cassox I'm late to the thread but responding to your original idea list:

    1) Biomes - I'm actually quite interested in this and have been working on a plan for vertical gardens that can be housed inside window frames. I've settled on aquaponics as the best way to create a semi closed system and now I'm researching what plants give the best nutrition value for the space/water requirement. I would suggest looking at duckweed - in ideal conditions it can double it volume every 24hrs, and is actually quite nutritious...
    It does concentrate metals etc from the water, making it toxic to eat if the water is not clean, the most common problem with it in the diet is kidney stones from increased calcium levels.

    As an addition I know there is a thread discussing internal armour, but what about treatments to improve the skin itself? Stimulate the growth of calluses for example, or treatments to make the skin more resilient to damage, e.g. fire or electricity (another thread has discussed this in passing)? Perhaps it might even be possible to give someone scales? 

    This might sound silly but when I was younger and studied martial arts seriously a lot of my fellow students worked very hard to toughen the skin on their hands and feet.
  • @Dr_Allcome I'd be interested in helping for an aquaponics system, got any leads?
  • @Dr_allcome
    I was looking at duck weed for a biomass generation system and I came to that conclusion that due to the fact that it is mostly water that the biomass that is there is almost unusably small, granted you plan on eating it, while I was planing on burning it.

    John Doe
  • @Aeris There's lots of resources online... What sort of start are you looking for?
    My own design is for "sub" micro system, rather than a single micro tank of 50L to 100L capacity for the fish I am trying to build a system of networked tanks each with only 2L-3L capacity so it can be built to make use of unused space in a house (e.g. hanging on the inside of a window).
    I'm building my first prototype garden now, and I'll be growing snow peas.
    They grow well in aquaponic/hydroponic systems and the leaves can be steamed and eaten directly, so even a small number of plants could provide a meal.
    The trouble I'm having is scaling down the marine organism, I'm looking at water snails for a creature that can breed quickly and will eat any algae that might get into the system.

    @JohnDoe I've read about a lot of projects trying to convert duckweed to biofuel, they are also called "water lentils" in France and Spain and apparently tastes a bit like cabbage when cooked. It's dry weight is something like 45% protein (better than soy) so it's potential as a food source is massive. It does need surface area so it's not suitable for my current project. For reference there is a company engaging in the mass production of duckweed as a food source [LINK]

  • I didn't know duckweed might have some use.  I know where there is a whole pond covered in the stuff.  It does seem to multiply FAST.  I didn't think about drying it either.  I assume you would want to rinse all the "fertilizer" off them before drying if you were going to make food out of it.  Once dried and powdered, I could see it being added to all kinds of food to add nutrition.  Maybe just food pellets or some kind of textured vegetable protein.

    On a different topic, everybody talks about implanting this and that but how many start with wearable versions to test out the idea without so much pain and risk?  Some kind of arm or leg bands could hold a lot of electronic sensors and also transmit information to your body using magnets, vibrators, or light electric shocks.  Lights or displays would be easy enough maybe all sent to a helmet with more enhancements possibly including a TDCS device.

    Why put the machine in the body?  Why not put the body in the machine?  Heat, cooling, protection, air filter ... Size would still be an issue if you need to carry it around but external repairs and modifications would be a lot easier than needing surgery.
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