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Injecting Neodymium Implants?
So I've just stumbled across this stuff by chance, and I think it's amazing. I'm looking to do this myself as soon as I figure out the best way to go about it.
I'm wondering if there is any reason people aren't talking about simply injecting the magnets, as opposed to opening up the epidermis and jamming the thing into the fresh wound. Or maybe using a catheter/cannula? Dunno if they make them big enough, though.
I was looking at grabbing $50 worth of these things, the 3mm ones. Would alcohol work to sterilise these things? I'm worried about the alcohol possibly damaging the coating. Also, would a spot of superglue be sufficient to close the wound?
Comments
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Sure, that should be easy. The cylindrical magnets we've been buying in this thread are 2mm in diameter, and are intended for injection:Cylindrical magnets are (obviously) better suited for injection than disc-shaped ones. Also, PTFE is low-friction, which should make them slide right in.Both parylene and PTFE have excellent chemical resistance. Alcohols should not damage the surface.It should be easy to get hold of a sterile RFID tag applicator that you can use for the purpose. Alternatively, perhaps a syringe with a thick hypodermic needle would work? Tattoo needles are easily available in the required diameters. Hypodermic needles do exist in those sizes, but they are a bit harder to get.
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Have you ever superglued a wound shut?I have.It's an awful experience.
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Oh? What's wrong with it?
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Has anyone actually tried injecting magnets before? I was talking to a friend of mine who is a body mod professional today, and here's what he had to say about it:I've seen a similar method used for RFID chips, but never for the magnets. Unless they're using the needle as a scalpel, just to make the incision. The issue being that the magnet nestles in a big nerve cluster. I would be worried personally about damaging said nerve cluster, or not placing it appropriately. Without proper placement, the feeling would be minimal.
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Yeah, I was about to say that they're used for RFID chips. Part of the reason we can use those is because the most popular locations to put those, such as in the hand between thumb and index finger, are well-suited for those injectors. I actually brought up using injectors for magnets on this forum a while back, and we eventually came to an agreement that those injectors aren't really suited for the fingertips.
It's too bad, too, since I'd love a less painful way to do this.
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I'm glad this thread was made, I was about to make a similar thread discussing how we are going to start injecting the ones we're getting in the group buy.My theory of how I might do the procedure is take the needle and stick the magnet in, then take the needle while holding it sideways and putting in the side of your finger. Then simply twist your hand up with the needle so the magnet falls down. I might take another magnet, hopefully I match the poles first so I don't twist it in the finger, and tape it to my finger. Super glue the magnet outside to the fingernail to keep them both in place, and wrap everything nice and tight to heal.Anything I'm overlooking, or you guys might want to suggest?
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best thing you can do is to get an injector made for injecting rfid tags for animals. they come with a good handle. and a small pin inside the needle that can push the implant out. so all you do is inject the needle (with the magnet inserted inside the needle). then you pull the needle out while gently pushing the magnet out. pretty straight forward.
alternatively. you should be able to pull the magnet through the needle using a another magnet. once in place gently pull out the needle.
gravity itself might not be enough to pull the magnet out. but aside from that, the general idea is ok.
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Be sure to account for bleeding, the blood will go into the needle. So you will definetly need something to push the magnet in while not damaging the coating. I think that another magnet to pull it in will not do the trick
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I've been looking around and I can only seem to find RFID syringes that are good for 2.12mm implants. I'm not convinced that those would be big enough to use for the 2mm magnets being purchased in the group buy, because the seal would add width, and it's probably also a good idea to have some leeway. I was thinking a 3mm syringe would work well.
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Look for tattoo supplies 8-gauge needel(ask google), has 3.429mm inner diameter. That wide enough?
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The magnets are cylindrical, so they should be relatively easy to push through the needle. PTFE is a very low-friction material, it should slide through smoothly. I can't speak from experience, but I'll personally try some #12 needles first (which are about 2.12 mm ID).What I might try is using a hypodermic needle and syringe, and letting the compression of air by the piston push the magnet through the needle.
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rdb, i disagree with using air to force it out. reason? airpockets are not good inside the body, where they're not meant to be.
Microchip implanters (like the one here http://www.peddymark.com/shop/?departmentID=11) might be a better move, as they have a little rod to gently push the magnet out.
Rasputin - as for the coating making the magnets bigger than 2.12mmID, I'm pretty sure the coating is included in the 2mm diameter.
given the magnets are for use in labs and the like where such a thing as precise diameter would (presumably) matter, i think we can safely say they're 2mm, period.
Ghost - 8gauge is too big, you'll just end up with the magnet rattling around in the sharp, and more tissue damage than necessary. go the 12g. also, that's why microchip implanters are a good idea, they push it out with a little rod, so you can remove the syringe and poke the magnet out at the same time. less tissue damage, as the magnet is not having to push against tissue and try to push it aside as it is implanted.
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OK, awesome. Thanks for the info, everyone.
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I have to. Agree with bish. It is a bad idea to try and push the magnet out with air. A big enough air pocket will kill you if it gets into the bloodstream. Perhaps it won't matter since the air pocket is not in the vain, but I wouldn't want to take that chance. .
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Ah, all right. I suppose there's no reason not to get one of those RFID tag implanters that are specially made for the purpose.The manufacturer states a tolerance of 10% in diameter and 5% in length, for the PTFE stirring bars. It is theoretically possible that the magnets are a bit thicker, but I don't see it as very likely. They claim to be able to machine them down to a tolerance of 0.02 mm, so I doubt that the diameter will be off by as much as 10%.Since you've bought a bunch, there is bound to be at least a few that are the right diameter.
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Right on. RFID things seem to be the way to go...and they seem to come with the chips. Might have to figure out something cool to use one of them for :D
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The RFID tags are cheap as hell, so I'd personally just throw them away. They typically aren't very useful in humans because they aren't very secure, if you wanted to use them for identification you should want to get one with a cryptographic signing system.
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Yeah, I figured they were cheap as chips, but if I've got one, why not use it? Though, that said, I couldn't really find anything easy and useful that I might want to do with one.
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I've been looking for more RFID implanters. The ones that Bish linked only sell to The United Kingdom. Any sites for Americans?
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I did some searching yesterday. How about this:http://www.rfidshop.net/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=334Or these: (these aren't sterilely packed)Or this store from the Netherlands:
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So it feels like I'm getting quite close to being able to do this, at last. I will be using the 5x2mm PTFE coated magnets from the group buy, along with an RFID syringe, that I sourced from here. The syringes were quite cheap, around $1.80 each, plus postage, so I bought a few of them. They haven't arrived yet, so I can't comment on the quality of these things. I was assured that they were sterile, but I'll still sterilise them myself when I use them.I've been thinking a bit about the details of exactly how I'm gonna shove these things into my fingers, and I've come up with a bit of a plan. I want to use the needle to pierce the epidermis right on the top of the mound of my fingertip. From there, I'll push the needle 7 or 8mm towards the intermediate phalange and use the syringe to push the magnet out of the needle, while pulling the needle back out. The idea is that the needle will do all the work of creating a space for the magnet to sit in. Seems better to make clean cuts with the needle than to tear the tissue by jamming a blunt magnet through it.From there the magnet should be sitting nicely a few mm below the mound of my (FSM willing) and it will just be a matter of suturing the wound, pouring alcohol over the mess and wrapping it up in an antibacterial bandage.Hopefully these syringes will turn up within a week or so and I'll be able to go ahead with all this. With any luck I should be able to put a video up somewhere of the whole ordeal.
EDIT: Oh yeah, I plan on using a topical numbing cream to help with the pain. People use numbing creams for tattoos, so I figure it should be ok for this, so long as I clean the area before I stick myself. -
'before I stick myself'
such a lovely way of putting it.
Seriously though, good luck and keep us posted!
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Thanks very much. I'm starting to think that the RFID syringe is a bad idea. It's just so big compared to the implant, and I'm worried about the way it's going to cut into both the skin and the underlying tissue. I think a scalpel is a more practical idea, albeit a little less elegant.
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It is not easy to implant that small magnet the usual way. At least if you do it yourself.
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How important is it to suture the 2.77mm gap, though? I don't think they use sutures on animals who get an RFID implant either.
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those implants are not on the fingers, though..Mostly they are not really needed (I'd guess), but I felt much better knowing there was something keeping the magnet inside..
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hm. while the huge needles might indeed be a bit hard to handle. they sure help a lot with placing the actual implant. so maybe a combination of scalpel-cut (a bit bigger than the needle, so the needle slides in without much stress) and needle-injection for placement would do the trick best. having said that, i have no experience with surgical knives so far. i only know that needles that big take quite some force to slide in.
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Scapel for the skin should work fine. If the bevel is sharp/long enough you shouldn't need one. BUT using a Scapel to cut the skin first may make it slide in through the tissue more smoothly.
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just a thought on topic of getting the magnet to stay put without a suture.
what if one was to inject the magnet inside the finger well away from the entry hole (i'm thinking at least 10mm from entry hole to placement) then, to prevent the magnet migrating back through the little tunnel it was injected down, either tape/glue a *weak* magnet to the outside of your finger to hold the one inside your finger in place (but not such a strong one that it would cause it to migrate through the tissue) or, alternatively, put something around the finger tight/snugly to close up the tunnel. I'm thinking like some micropore tape or similar. not too tight, as we want to keep blood flowing, but tight enough to prevent the magnet slipping past it.
thoughts?
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If one does the tunnel technique then it is fairly easy to keep it from coming out. Even with just a bandaid all the time. As long as you keep it clean and don't play/push on it much until it heals a bit. It is the ones closer to the incision that require special attention. But personally I suture all just so I won't have to worry.
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