Human Geiger Counter

So, in my wandering biohacking thoughts, I started to think about what all of our projects here do. Magnets allow us to sense EMF and biothermals let us detect internal temperature. I would put RFID and NFC in a separate category because they don't add a new sense to the body. In thinking about this, I was trying to figure out other things we could sense and I came up with radiation. I don't know what it would precisely be used for, but I find the idea of being aware of levels of radiation to be interesting. The basic concept I'm thinking of is a subcutaneous light or tattoo that is inside the forearm and emits light proportionally to the amount of radiation around it. The reason I chose a light instead of a click or electrical signal is because there are already types of radiation detectors that use scintillation, so it may be easier to adapt one of those methods than to create our own.

The main scintillation detector used is Sodium Iodide (NaI) and Thallium. An example of their brightness can be seen at 4:30 in this Youtube video. Sodium Iodide is activated by the Thallium and releases photons when stimulated by ionizing radiation (Gamma waves) in its environment. Most detectors then detect this light and change it into an electrical charge which can then be measured and turned into a reading or click.

NaI itself is an irritant to the human body and may cause birth defects, but I doubt any subcutaneous tests have been run on it except where pertinent in radiation therapy. It's also edible and used as an Iodine supplement for deficiencies.

The other option I found is plastic scintillation. Sadly, even though plastic is supposed to be the cheaper and more available of the two options, I can't seem to find crap for information on them. All I have is this link to a place that sells plastic, liquid, and fiber scintillators, but I can't be sure this is even what I'm looking for. The plastic detectors are supposed to be organic (or have organic activators), but I can't find any proof or info on them or their chemistry other than the data sheets under "specifications" that I have no idea how to read.

I'm leaning towards the plastics because having thallium inside my body sounds less than preferable and they're the cheaper option. I don't know how bright they are, however, and I'm unsure whether we could make a coating that allows light through both itself and then the skin.

Thoughts?
Tagged:
«1

Comments

  • It's one of those things I'd likely never get to use, but I would sure like to have one.  I did a bit of reading on Geiger tubes a few months back, going into it having no idea how they worked.  Turns out they need power so that was a no go, but what you've posted sounds intriguing.

    One coating that would allow light through would be silicone.  The silicone used on the Circadia looked pretty transparent, as I recall.  Bio-glass, of course, comes to mind, but that's not something we can do without a fair bit of equipment, right?
  • So it looks like the main Plastic Scintillator (BC-408) is composed of  polyvinyltoluene (PVT) and activated with anthracene. PVT is bad for eyes and skin but should be fine when sealed in something and anthracene is also an irritant, but is found in cigarettes so it's not super terrible.

    So... yeah. This stuff when mixed together should glow under radiation. Who wants to put it in a pill under their skin (or a mouse's) for science?
  • Here's some BC-412 glowing under radiation (or possibly UV light, it does both I think).
  • Conceptually, I love this idea. I walk around every day with a wristwatch Geiger counter (which just a few weeks ago "detected" a friend who had a PET scan earlier that day.) I've spent time exploring the Chernobyl Exclusion Zone in 2013 and plan on going back. (Small world: The creator of the first YouTube video you mention, bionerd23, is the person who I went to the Zone with. While there, I've used the scintillator/PMT probe she starts the video with.)

    That said, bio issues aside, I don't think the physics of this project will work. NaI(Tl) and plastic scint crystals produce photons when struck by radiation, and these cause fluorescence which shifts the wavelength into visible or at least closer to visible light frequencies.

    Scints do not produce a lot of light in response to radiation. The first YouTube video you post shows her irradiating a scint with an X-ray machine. That's a very intense (but short duration) radiation exposure, and you could not legally own (nor would it be advisable to own!) a source that could make a scint light up like that. Also note that it was filmed in a dark room, and the scint in question was large. Large scint = more interactions with radiation = more light, but at the same time, something that large is too big to be implanted. The second YouTube video of BC-412, according to the description, shows a scint exposed to UV. In that case, you're observing the fluorescent properties of the scint, not the radiation sensitive properties.

    Generally speaking, individual radiation events produce small numbers of photons. Usually, they are optically coupled to a photomultiplier tube (PMT), which turns small numbers of received photons in the visible or near-visible light wavelengths into electrical impulses. And that optical coupling usually requires the crystal face (or for NaI(Tl) which is extremely hygroscopic, the clear face of the can that contains it) to be in direct contact with the PMT, and the gap to filled with an optical jelly. Further, the entire assembly must be kept 100% light tight, or else the PMT will be overwhelmed with stray light.

    I can't think of a way that a scint small enough to be implanted could produce light under any reasonable levels of radiation that would escape through the skin and be visible or be countable by a PMT. This just might work in the case of a lethal radiation dose, but you can't exactly test it, and, anyway, it would be hard to see over the light of the mushroom cloud. :-)
  • An implantable Geiger counter just might be possible, but things could go very wrong very fast.

    I own this watch: http://www.polimaster.com/products/electronic_dosimeters/pm1208m/ I observed that a single CR2032 battery powered the Geiger counter + the micro-controller that runs it + an LCD screen + a standard quartz watch movement for 1 1/2 years. So its power usage is probably within the realm of possibility for implanted electronics.

    I suspect they get the long battery life out of it because they only turn the Geiger tube on infrequently, measure the time until the first pulse, or maybe the time between consecutive pulses, and immediately turn it off. You can then do statistics on the result to estimate the radiation dose rate. I can set it next to the most powerful source I own and it often takes about a minute to figure out that it's in the presence of radiation, and even longer to figure out when I've taken the source away.

    Here is a dissection of a similar watch: http://xronosclock.com/home/?p=4238
    Note the size of the Geiger tube. That appears to be a Russian SBM-21 Geiger tube. Data sheet is here: http://www.gstube.com/data/2399/ So, 6mm x 21mm for the tube alone. It would need to be in a carefully chosen implant site because you really don't want a near-vacuum tube getting crushed internally.

    Next, there's the high voltage issue. The tube operates at 350-475V! Now the HV supply requires extremely low current. (So low that you can't directly measure it with a multimeter; the typical 10 MOhm impedance looks like a short when compared to what the tube typically uses when it isn't triggered by a radiation event.) Still, I've been zapped by a Geiger counter power supply, and it is enough to get your attention! I really don't want to know what happens if the coating breaks down and starts shocking the user internally with the full Geiger tube voltage.

    All said, this is probably a bad idea. But I'm picturing a user interface where the device could deliver small subcutaneous shocks. It could have several operation modes (which possibly could be switched by tapping it with a finger magnet?):

    1. Alarm mode. Default. Deliver shocks when configured radiation dose rate thresholds are reached. Shock pattern indicates which alarm threshold was triggered.
    2. Dose indication mode. When prompted, it could use some form of encoding (e.g. Morse code) to send the current dose rate to the user. E.g. ".12u" = 0.12 uSv/h
    3. Continuous / sixth sense mode. This would keep the tube powered on, and translate individual counts to shocks. This would use the most power, so it might not be possible for long periods of time.
    4. Most important: OFF!

  • Ah happy memories from my days working with this stuff. 

    SO if you wnat a gieger counter implant, don't bother with a geiger tube. Things are a pain in the ass, bulky and take a massive amount of power to run if you want any sort of accuracy or sensitivity. Sints are better but you still have issues. Most need a photomultiplier tube to work and incase you've never seen one, most are the size of a lightbulb or larger. A guy I worked with once built a detector by putting silver in a tank of scint fluid. When a neutron hit the silver it would cause ti to decay and the radiation released would cause the scint to light up which was picked up by the photomultiplier tube. If you could somehow boost the signal from the scint you'd be able to detect things. My suggestion is do it electrical but not with a gieger tube. Use a scint with a photodiode next to it. Boost the signal from the diode and transfer the signal to an LED or something. Or a shock. You'll need a much better scint than NaI though. That shit is dim as hell and any moisture destroys it. Trust I've tried. Total pain. Plastics again are better but i like the idea of a bit of liquid encased in a little vial. You won't pick up alphas but gammas and strong betas should make it through your skin to the detector just fine. 
  • @glims, this discussion is based around an unpowered, passive radiation detector. That discussion is about an electronic gieger counter.
  • @chironex, so what do you think about the liquid scints available at st gobain?
  • edited April 2015
    it'll have to be powered or it wont work. 

    you want bc-408 if you're buying from them. Widest range of detection, fairly tight emission band and soluable in most decent solvents so you can form it how ya like. Changed my mind about liquids. They're better for high energy stuff and if you want to know the shape or path of a particle which we don't need here. Stick to plastics. 

  • I don't think Geiger tubes are all that bulky:

    SBM-21: 6mm x 21mm
    LND 716: 5.2mm x 24.5mm

    The sensitivity isn't great, but they are still capable of measuring background. Power consumption doesn't have to be high. As I said, I've got one in my wristwatch, and Polimaster quotes an accuracy of ±20% in range 0.1 - 9999 μSv/h which is certainly adequate.

    I'm not familiar with scint + solid state detectors, although I know a PIN diode on its own will work as a gamma detector, but it's not terribly sensitive, and that has the advantage of working with much lower voltage.
  • +- 20 percent is a lot dude. Especially in radiation. Like i said, for old school tech to work well u need a lot of power. just stick to solid state.
  • edited April 2015
    Sensitivity required depends upon the use case. 20% may be a lot if you're trying to measure how much radiation to give a cancer patient. But the difference between "normal background", "something's interesting", "something's wrong", "run like hell", and "I suppose I'm going to be vomiting in a few hours" is generally at least an order of magnitude. I would think it would be useful for a modified human to make these kinds of determinations, and 20% accuracy is more than adequate, especially considering that in an unmodified state, such a human would have no direct sensitivity at all even to dangerous levels of radiation exposure without waiting for the onset of symptoms. This doesn't need to be an implantable piece of lab equipment with traceable calibration to NIST standards.

    I don't know where you're getting your info about power consumption of Geiger tubes, but they use extremely low power. They aren't like glowing hot guitar amp tubes. Geiger tubes need a high voltage bias supply, but they don't consume that power when they aren't experiencing a count event. And when a charged particle causes an avalanche, there's a resistor on the anode which limits current flow until the contents of the tube can quench it. The tube becomes insensitive during its dead time period, and the HV supply can use this free time to restore the bias voltage again. There are plenty of ways to make high efficiency switching HV power supplies, especially when you only need them to supply nanoamps of power..

    From practical experience: A CR2032 battery contains around 190-225 mAh of power, and my watch lasted for a year and a half on one CR2032 without changing the battery. That powered the Geiger tube, the micro-controller, the LCD, and a standard quartz wristwatch movement. And the Geiger tube was taking readings 24x7 (although I'm sure it's only doing so a small fraction of the time and using statistical sampling to arrive at the dose rate.)

    I don't know much about the medical aspects of grinding, but from a purely electrical standpoint, the power requirements for a miniature Geiger tube are extremely low.
  • edited April 2015
    you're forgetting that this is to be implanted. Things like LEDS are considered to be massive power trains. A geiger counter is orders of magnitude more so and frankly, not a huge fan of high voltage IN your body. Solid state is cleaner, easier and more effective. ALso what is the form factor of said watch? thing would be big and bulky compared to a solid state detector. Glims maintains that you can get fairly large in terms of implants but im more a fan of keeping everything as tiny as possible since if im gonna have this in my body it can't get in the way. I'm getting my information from years of working on/building detectors and around nuclear fusion reactors. Im just a stickler I guess but if im having a detector with me, I want it to be accurate and more useful than just giving me an approximate dose reading. I wanna know ideally what energies im picking up and such which is easier with solid state. 

    Also all the solid state detectors i've seen are far far smaller. They have an array of them at my school and they're paper thin and the electronics are small too.
  • @chironex High voltage inside your body is no problem as long as it is not connected to your body. Even if , most hv-source only deliver tiny currents so the voltage would immediately drop after a quick (not so comfy) discharge. More importantly: do you have any part numbers of those solid state detectors?
  • Not anymore. Been years since I had that list so it'll have to built from the ground up again. Even if hv is fine in the body I still think a solid state detector design is better due to form factor and such. Unless you can put forward parts and a design for a tiny geiger tube setup

  • Building a small 400v source is pretty easy. The tube is still pretty big compared to solid state devices i guess.
  • So you guys don't think a photodiode and some BC-412 would work? (that is, in conjunction with a power supply and actuator?)
  • Ideally you use a small piece of both. Layered ideally. That way it'll pick up xrays, gamma, beta, alpha and cosmic particles. But if you're only using one then i'd go 408. ideally this whole thing could be made so it's fairly thin power and such included. Since it's a more passive system it should require less power as the detector itself isn't powered. The diode will need to be amplified though which will require amplification.
  • I've reached out to the fusion forums I used to frequent. If anyone can build a tiny radiation detector its them. I'll keep you updated with their thoughts on the matter
  • I'd love to get involved in this, but I have no experience in it. Glad to see it's getting your interest though. :)
  • I builded a simple system some time back which is basically a photo diode (old, cheap webcam) and a radiation source (americium 241). The americium is placed directly above the diode.
    Now this design has a few problems: It requires complete darkness so the diode doesn't pick up photons but even then to be really good it would require extreme cooling to eliminate thermal noise.

    The software powering this device tries to filter the thermal noise and this is the result: (this is a old version, the filters are better now. Also sorry for the bad image quality).

    I'm pretty sure tis device wouldn't work under the skin (it's to big anyway). Even if you would use a larger array of diodes the detection rate would be very low. Also I guess you can't detect alpha rays under the skin, no matter how good your detector is, as the upper skin layers are already blocking them (that's why you don't really have to fear alpha rays. The chance of them entering deep skin levels and as a result causing cancer is extremely low). Generally a subdermal detector would detect rays which are passing through the skin only, so the rays it detects can damage your DNA (cause cancer) and as a result you should run as fast as you can when you have such an implant and it really gives you a sense! That said I'm not that sure if such a implant would be useful for daily tasks at all.

    Anyway, these are just my 2 cents and I'm all other than an expert in this area so keep on brainstorming! :)

    BTW: If anyone is interested in the technical details of the device simply google for "alpha ray visualizer" - the hardware design isn't by me (anyway you should shield not only with foil but also with wax. Wax is a beta ray blocker and even if there shouldn't be such rays when you're working with nuclear things it's always better safe then sorry) - and for the software have a look at github (but please note that the readme is out of date; it does require root rights, for example).
  • I knew asking them was a good idea. check this out
    Looks like the perfect size and actually gives great data.
  • theres your detector: SensL b series

    theres your scint: LYSO:ce crystal

    all you need is the electronic to run it and output the data and you're good.
  • That's cool. So, in terms of output, what are our options? I'm hesitant to consider minor shocks, but we could always go with the classic clicking (with a lower limit, so daily life is not accompanied by a radiation metronome). I originally was hoping for a light signal, but it doesn't seem feasible.
  • 3 blinking leds. 1x 10x and 100x?
  • Would the LEDs be under the skin or transdermal?
  • under. coating them to make them transdermal would be a pain. atleast for the first model. If we build this, eventually we can move some components above the skin
  • a common thread to many of the ideas I see here is communicating it to the body. 

    search dosimeter; film, quartz, TLD

    "

    Film badge dosimeter[edit]

    Main article: Film badge dosimeter

    Film badge dosimeters are for one-time use only. The level of radiation absorption is indicated by a change to the film emulsion, which is shown when the film is developed.

    Quartz fiber dosimeter[edit]

    Main article: Quartz fiber dosimeter

    Quartz fiber dosimeters are charged to a high voltage. As the gas in the dosimeter chamber becomes ionized by radiation the charge leaks away, causing the fiber indicator to change against a graduated scale.[7]

    Thermoluminescent dosimeter (TLD)[edit]

    A thermoluminescent dosimeter measures ionizing radiation exposure by measuring the intensity of visible light emitted from a crystal in the detector when heated. The intensity of light emitted is dependent upon the radiation exposure.

    Both the quartz fiber and film badge types are being superseded by the TLD and the EPD."


    How to communicate this to the body? Not sure, that's where power is the problem which we've been discussing. I wonder... have a feeling if the body may sense more than what we relise and if we give different things a go we may find that any of these implanted may be sensed in how they are changing, outside of how we normally understand the body. Perhaps maybe even on the skin too. 

Sign In or Register to comment.