Valproate Retriggering Brain Development Periods
Some rather interesting research. Especially for me as a musician. My ear is horrible and now i'm really interested in this. 
What do you guys think? If I could get my hands on 2 weeks of doses I would give it a shot.


  • Ten grams for 37 dollars. If you do the 500mg doses, you could swing it. Alternatively, you could get 25 grams for 68 dollars and really go to town.
  • edited January 2014
    In fact, after a bit of reading, it looks like it's not only for perfect pitch, it's supposedly returns neural plasticity, which how the perfect pitch learning is achieved. (which I would have realized had I actually read your title)

    I'm down. Group buy! 100 grams for 186 dollars! Any takers?
  • Where are you sourcing this? And are you aware of the potential side effects like liver damage (in up to 44% of patients) and pancreatitis (20%)?

    Source on adverse effect incidence rates:
  • edited January 2014
    Hmm yeah, what that'd be 10 grams for 18.6 dollars? I could probably do that. And i want to keep the dosage low.
    Just train really hard.
    Edit: And thanks @zombiegristle i knew there were those adverse effects but not to that scale. Ill have to look into that more later. I'd like to sleep tonight.
  • Where am I sourcing the dosages? Direct form a chemical supply company of course :) To be fair, it was sigma aldrich, they are always a bit pricey, could probably find it cheaper, they're just the easiest. Buying it as a medication doesn't make any sense to me, stupidly expensive to buy "drugs" when they are just chemicals

    From what I have read, the liver damage and the pancreatitis are for people who take it for long amounts of time. The paper reported no adverse effects for their test subjects. Lot's of things are like this, where chronic usage leads to failure of organs (like alcohol or soda pop).  I will look into it more though...
  • I had just read about this on Reddit the other day and am definitely interested. Imagine the possibilities if crossed with Adderall and C16!
  • Adderall is kinda neurotoxic unfortunately. I would be nervous about stacking these types of chemicals. It's not like caffeine and theanine or the racetams. The punch provided here is quite a bit more I believe.

    Beyond that, further reading into the effects, both major and minor, seem to be counter to what this study suggests. My enthusiasm is waning... More to be read...
  • A group buy of an initial supply would be interesting, have a small sample group and conduct our own study. I'd be down to be a guinea pig, provided the adverse effects aren't too great...
  • Well, once we finish up our current testing of chemicals on volunteers, I will get on it. After the readings, I'm not 100% excited to try it myself, however, I would be happy to facilitate other people trying it as long as I get to document the process :)

    We could start sooner if someone volunteers to be a control, that is, maintain the same testing but without taking any. I can start working on a protocol...
  • I'd be willing to get in on a group buy when it happens.  I'd also willing to be a control for @glims.  If the tests have anything to do with listening comprehension, though, I might not be that useful since I have perfect pitch.
  • I have some other ideas in mind for the testing. Big issue with that PI saying that the reason for the increased pitch sensitivity is due to neural plasticity. There were no things that specifically pointed to that thing. It was a toss off comment to increase the novelty of the paper.

    Anyhoo, we have John, Ian, Aphotic... any other takers?

  • Hmm. So the better pitch sensitivity is due to some other yet unknown weirdness and not neural plasticity? Or at least it hasn't been proven as such.

    But the drug still indeed seems to help speed the process of ear training? Is it just ear training in general or does it actually seem to help with perfect pitch?
  • I also volunteer to be a guinea pig.
  • @John  more what i was saying is that this study sucks and is going out on a limb with out any elements defining the mechanism. It _could_ be neural plasticity. I could be specific to sounds. It could be just about anything.

    and with mit, we now have enough for it to be a least kind of a not ridiculously small test group. Everyone interested, please pm me. I will mash you into one conversation group and then I will be sending you further instructions about shipping, payments, dosage, and testing methodology.
  • Indeed. Well I'm still in obviously. Now about heath issues. Are the any we would need to worry about over time of testing? I understand issues can be had with long term use. How bad are things looking short term? I would do the research myself but you seem to much better at it, and well actually have access.

    Now I a friend outside of this forum that is very interested in labratting this as well. Should I tell him to start an account and join the PM thread or should I just send you twice as much money/data and whatnot. Shipping both to just me would be fine to cut costs.
  • I also don't see how the study related the drug to neural plasticity simply by observing the capability for the individual to learn perfect pitch. It would be interesting to try this as a guinea pig simply because I have no discerning ear for music but if it did indeed act as intended and reintroduced the neural plasticity period to the brain and increased cognitive abilities, then it would have profound effects across many spectrum aka my academic life.

    Will send you a PM and I am very insterested as long as the health repercussions aren't too great, both long term and short term.
  • the planning aspects of this conversation have been moved to a private thread. people interested in being involved have until friday the 17th to get on board.
  • edited January 2014
    Haven't had time to be here in a while but this project sounds exciting and I am most certainly interested in being involved.  So if someone could please add me to the private thread I would appreciate it.
  • How did this go? anyone get perfect pitch :P
  • This went nowhere. Basically, we ran into two issues. One is that you need someone to teach the skill so we were looking into other things. Two is that everyone just kinda milled around and nothing actually happened.
  • noted. also you can teach yourself the skill but w.e, not the point. took a peak at current prices, they're higher now, so may just let this one die
  • Valproate is anti-nootropic. 

    Antipsychotics probably lead to cortical atrophy and brain shrinkage in the long run. 
  • Forgive me but isn't nootropics a category not a substance? If so how is something anti-nootropic?
  • I guess the same way one could describe something as being 'illegal', and how a police officer is suppose to counter illegal activity...

    That being said, it leaves so many things open to 'how, what, where, when, why'?

    As asked, sources to explain those would be nice. ^^

  • @Meanderpaul nootropics cover substances that are known to be safe and improve cognition, so if it is known to be detrimental to cognition, it could be called anti-nootropic.
  • Ahh that makes sense to me now. Thank you for that.
  • Agreed. Nootropics by definition have impressive safety profiles. Piracetam is active in the hundreds of mg range and yet is safe enough that people take grams at a time without detriment. The problem is that now things like provigil are being categorized as nootropics as well. How the word nootropic is used is shifting to simply mean cognitive enhancer. I agree that typical antipsychotics are associated with decreased cognitive ability. Ive worked psych. Haldol is definitely not boosting intellectual status; however, even having dosed people and seen the acute and chronic effects.. I'm not in a position to conclude that these meds are a, b, or c. What about lower doses? What about higher doses? What about coadministration to ameliorate deficits produced? Are the affects different on healthy adults?

    So if taking an appropriately low dose of valproate really can reopen periods of neuroplasticity would it be worth it for a temporary period of being a bit dull? Maybe? I think is time for research and reading preexisting studies more than drawing conclusions. Thus... sources?

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