Hello Everyone! I have concerns!
Hello! How do you all do? Please forgive me, my keyboard is fritzy and it's difficult to type some letters.
My name is Faustus. I am new to grinding. I was surprised to encounter the community of grinders here today, and was very excited to see how large it is.
My expertise includes Physics, Electrical Engineering, Material Science and Material Engineering and Computer Science and Computer Engineering. I spend most of my time reading informative works and working with small, personal, theories.
My worried concerns for Grinders:
I have a great amount of excitement, but also a great amount of worry for this field.
Let me express my concerns to grinders. This must be acknowledged to make the future for grinders less stressful.
Implanted integrated circuits (IC's) can become affected by what is called noise. In the field of physics, noise is the result of additional energy added into a system- energy the system has not accounted itself to deal with. In quantum computers, this noise can take the form of all types of energy. In Electrical Engineering and Computer Science, it usually takes the form of heat.
However! This is not the only form of noise.
Reading DARPA's HEMP, NEMP, and EMP papers on the topic of IC damage in embedded systems due to EMP damage, I was able to conclude that this is indeed a problem!
IC's are vulnerable to heat and radiation damage. They are very sensitive! They are not created to deal with strong alternating currents generated by NEMP/EMP.
I began to think of ways to fix this. There are ways already being used by NASA- Bipolar PROM, a form of radiation non-susceptible IC that features fuses that switch on and off but can only be programmed once and usually only can store a small 500 bytes of ROM, this could counter it, but machine ROM memory would be limited- on top of that, PROM is no longer manufactured and is very expensive to find online, and is not as compact as many IC's from this decade.
The DARPA paper features Shielding, also known to DARPA's research teams as Hardening. This method emplys a conductive jacket around the circuitry, in the last decade it featured gold and copper jackets to defend the IC's from radiation damage.
This is nice, but it requires many layers of conductive material to shield the item from the dangerous current,, although the voltage that is generated in the IC decreases logarithmically according to n-number of cubic (u)m shielded, this is not feasible to a biohacker. You would have to insert metal sheets similar in thickness, texture, and consistency to aluminum foil.
I'm sure there is a grinder who would love to do that, but it would make for awkward clearance checks as well as awkward explanations to the medical technicians who specialize in medical imaging and potentially cause damage during an Xray procedure or MRI.
So this brings up the topic of graphene. Graphene is an amazing conductor at the scale of only a single atom thick. It gets its identity from its structure, which determines its conductivity. In a slightly disorganized bulk mess- graphene may be graphite, similar to any other manifestation of carbon, and develops a high resistance, which makes it have the ability to actually resist current and become the opposite of what it does at graphene organization. It's a material form of carbon that- if used ablatively, could offer shielding, as well as defense against radiation, but in it's structure of graphite, would actually work alongside MRI's to offer protection to sensitive IC's and components, as well as protecting the device from jeopardizing the digital imaging.
Ablatively, it would be able to act as a shield from HEMP NEMP/EMP as well as offer resistance alongside MRI imaging. If graphene would be properly utilized, it could be the biohacker community's answer to noise generation in IC's. Graphene is not expensive to obtain.
This brings up the next form of noise- heat. I've been looking into a novel biomaterial many of you have already seen in your lives. It's called nacre, otherwise known as mother of pearl. It is a natural organic material formed on the inside of mollusks- the material that pearls are made of. It gains it's iridescence from it's (brick pattern) microscopic arrangement of organic platelets. It offers excellent heat shieling at even the smallest of levels and even offers corrosion proofing due to it's saturation of lipids and other organic substance similar to the internal structure of most carbon based life forms- nacre is a form of calcium- it's makeup is not far from your enamel or bone cells in your body.
The best part about nacre? The body doesn't reject it.
In studies, nacre alongside the skin- explants such as lotions made of aqueous nacre had shown that nacre had actually assisted the healing process, becoming part of the skin. Nacre alongside of bone becomes part of the bone it touches, bones will form new formations to acceps the nacre. The involvement is minimal- nacre can't reform entire bone structures, but bone appears to attach around it.
The immune system does not fight it. The bone cells do not fight it. Skin and the lower dermis accept nacre. Nacre coatings offer excellent heat shielding (One way, due to nacre's 2D crystal structure, but can be implemented in bidirectional the same way a person could make 2 sided tape :-) ) Your body will actually use it's natural healing processes to deal with nacre coated particles, joining the particle to form part of the body.
Nacre would be the membrane of IC's in the biohacker community. It works well alongside organic matter and sensitive IC'.
I see that many of you are using rubber cement and other forms of glue to coat metal objects before inserting them into your body. I need to see exactly how this fares.
An ablative shielding of combined nacre and graphene would mean wonderful things for the field of prosthetics and biohackers. I think this is the prime issue that needs to be addressed before the community continues with any endeavors. The implants you are giving yourselves are very sensitive to noise in the form of radiation and heat, and you could end up causing severe burns or having malfunctioning decaying silicon implanted in a very dangerous part of your body.
Safety is something that I need to stress, and I promise that as a member of this community, I will stress to encourage safety in biohacking procedures, theoretical or practical.
Something else that I'm interested in safety wise- a fusebox platform for grinders. I'll explain in the future.
Xu, Yuxi, et al. "Strong and ductile poly (vinyl alcohol)/graphene oxide composite films with a layered structure." Carbon 47.15 (2009): 3538-3543.
For wonderful studies shown on the biology of nacre behaving alongside graphene.
Sanders, Stephen C. HEMP (High-Altitude Electromagnetic Pulse) Validation of FAA (Federal Aviation Administration) Radio Facility. No. HDL-TM-89-5. HARRY DIAMOND LABS ADELPHI MD, 1989.
Military journal in aviation testing hardening techniques featuring conductive jackets.
Tesny, Neal, et al. Shielding Effectiveness Measurements Applied to Safety Assessment Predictions at Picatinny Arsenal. No. ARL-TR-3481. ARMY RESEARCH LAB ADELPHI MD, 2005.
Army research lab- the exact measurements of shielding from radiation noise- focuses heavily on safety, not an easy read.
Computer Science Experience: I have worked on expert systems in my own time, or autonomous embedded systems using genetic algorithms such as neural networks: operations done in a similar way to glial/neuron electrochemical connections in areas of the human brain, such as the frontal lobe.
I had used this neural network in an attempt to assemble a lexicon- or a computational dictionary of words and phrases accessed in a way similar to the human brain; through the fetching and assembly of word structure: lexomeres.
The neural network used a system of n-sized matrices, implemented in ANSI C. This made it compatible with the Native Activity functionality that my rooted Android device had supported. It was planned to bridge to a microcontroller prototyping platform,, such as Mbed or Arduino, but it had never seen that stage. Even running at 600MHz on my Android device, the CPU intensive activity was only able to recall a few words at best and made questionable (and non-timely) decisions about how to arrange these words. It was very slow.
Material Science Experience:
I have been able to forge DIY plastics from HDPE and LDPE, a form of plastic common in plastic bags. Plastic bags can be reshaped to create strong and versatile plastics. These plastics can be virtually unbreakable- in the form of LDPE.
Current interest in material science includes DIY graphene sheets. Graphene is a material I'll discuss soon.
Graphene has a two-fold ability. It acts as a conductor and also appears to have a great amount of (tensile?) strength. It can be assembled from large amounts of graphite- which is good news to pencil lovers :-), once the clay bindings in pencil lead can be removed.
I theorize optical lattice, I also theorize a cheap and versatile isostatic pressurizer.
In an optical lattice- (which can be assembled for a price lower than 20 US dollars, given the current going rate of lasing modules on online markets) you can freeze the state of gas atoms into a low temperature state. This state essentially has little energy, and becomes a Bose Einstein condensate. This forms into a shared category of particles known as bosons, but not quite. It forms the condensate which as very strange properties, such as the ability to distort light traveling through. Practical use mainly comes through assembly, as optical lattices may be used to assemble material matrices (Which I'll go into later!) Ultraviolet diode assemblies are difficult to find, so the optical lattices I plan on sharing with the community feature only 808 - 1000nm infrared light.
Optical Lattices are a great candidate for quantum computing- a technology perhaps decades ahead of our time, someday I'll find articles that can explain this to me.
An isostatic pressurizer is a common tool used to press together metal salts into strong metallic forms, or force porous metals into a strong non-porous state. It is analog to smelting and molding, as it uses the pressure of a gas that won't chemically react with anything (Your noble gases: Neon, Helium Xenon) to press together metals with otherwise high melting points. It's not a very new technology, but it hasn't been affordable to the average DIY Maker. Something I hope to change someday.
I plan on being very active in this community- no one minds if I use this thread to post future updates?
This was really meant to only be one post! :-) But it was so large I had to break it into three.
Take a deep breath - and calm down.
The concerns you raised are mostly military and space vehicle related. Those usualy involve extreme temperatures, great ammount of radiation off all kinds, protection against jamming, highest reliability (you can't repair stuff in space just like that), performance at the edge of the physically possible limits, etc.
None of those things apply to implants. Earth and the human body do a great deal of shielding and protecting. What's left are just some basic EMC issues to make sure your device won't fail in a fatal way. In most cases, you, the owner of the body with the implant, will fail long before the circuit itself. E.g. temperature: most industry/military grade ic work between -40 and +125°C. if your internal body temperature exceeds that limit, you are usualy as dead as one can be. Same goes for most other kinds of radiation.
Most important point is indeed separating the circuits from the body. Altho nacre is a neat material, it's not the material of choice here. Medical grade PTFE or dow corning silicones are easily available and well tested for this purpose.
Graphene, altho a fun toy, has no practical and proven uses here as far as i know. Neither does the theorized Einstein Bose condensate or quantumcomputing. To be blunt, it doesn't belong here. Neural networks.. well... altho they are called neural they are of no practical use when building implants.
You may want to read up on how actual implants are made. Such as pacemakers and the likes. You may also want to freshen up your electrical engineering skills. Especially about current/voltage noise, and circuit design.
Sorry for beeing a rather rejective, but your post is painfully long to read (content aside).
[edit: fixed one of many typos]
ThomasEgi, you seem like a very understanding person, so:
I'm going to defend myself against these one by one.
Heat generated just by a electronic system does not have to be extreme- heat in general has negative effects on any electronic system. I'm sure that you're familiar with cooling systems and heatsinks in devices. The devices may not generate this level of heat now, but operating temperatures are important to be kept constant for any electronic system.
Looking at any electronic component datasheet, you see tables which state the operating temperature at which it operates. Even on prototyping platforms, such as Arduino, temperatures are stated that the device has to run at. Especially in systems that implants may eventually feature, such as laser diode assembly or even motors (I have no idea why these would be implanted :-)) current hungry electronic components or electronics that generate large waste amounts of heat may have to be taken into account.
To completely ignore temperature in Electrical Engineering is a below freshman level mistake.
Secondly, claiming that I doubt silicon's potential from shielding tissue from the metal components; I don't doubt the efficacy of silicon. Silicon at the same thinning levels of nacre (sheet level) has nowhere near the heat tolerance as synthetic nacre. I accept your apology at the bottom about my post being hard to read- you seem to have completely skipped over the area with my explanation of the utility of nacre and brick and mortar formation as a heat shield at even the thinnest of levels.
Graphene is a fun toy? Having no practical and proven uses? This is surprisoing news to hear given the insurmountable amount of peer reviewed articles showering graphene (Even the article where a group of researchers from an Eastern University actually have *Surprisingly* found and have proven uses)
(You call graphene a fun toy as if you've used it before? What are you?)
The Bose-Einstien condensate and the Quantum computer were tidbits about my personal time. They were stated after I voiced my concerns, only so I can introduce my interests. I don't see why I'm being attacked for sharing my hobbies, ThomasEGi.
Neural Networks fall in line with the above statement of me sharing my interests and personal experience- why do you seem to have an issue with my personal background? You can embed neural networks into a microcontroller, which is up to you what you determine where it may go. I'm surprised that you're saying this!
I know that you're an administrator, and I'm holding as much respect for you as possible, and from your final paragraph it's clear you didn't read my entire post in it's entirety, but skipped around haphazardly only cherry-picking terms such as Condensates and Quantum Computers, and I feel like I'm getting off to a terrible start for reasons above that I've (in parallel form) refuted your arguments against my above post, but I feel like you should I've me a second chance and re-read my entire above posts, slowly and comprehensively.
Your only claims against me are claims against **academic scholarly articles claims against the **laws of nature concerning heat and **my caution against EMP damage. NEMP is closer than you believe- it's generated from nuclear detonations. LEMP is generate in nature by simple lightning flashes. I in no way said that these things were common, but in a case of a global disaster, you may end up having every integrated circuit in your body lose function with the choice of having to manually go into yourself and remove these devices- painfully.
I *implore you* to re-read my article, read my sources, learn the limitations of 2D IC as we use it (This ranges from the microcontrollers you've probably used to military craft) and reconsider this all as I'm a new member- feeling as if my above points were challenged by someone who hardly read a word that I had typed. This goes beyond rare-earth metal magnets in fingertips.
my points remain.
implants usualy have very low power consumtions ranging around the μW. the surface area of that implant will easily conduct that heat to your body, which will regulate it out. as your body is mostly made out of water which gets pumped around, getting heat away from your implant is excellent by nature. same works for muscles which produce ways more heat. in a practical application, the heat difference will usualy be ways below 1K. no matter if 37°C or 38. those are extremly stable conditions, compared to any circuit operating at free air.
my point: temperature inside a body is ways more regulated than in an open environment. and usualy circuits are designed for the open environment. so this poses no problem at all. besides, heat is not all bad. circuits do require a certain operating temperature in order to work at all. so again. i don't see any need for heat shielding ,thus no need for nacra either. in contrast, conducting the heat away would be a lot better than shielding it (which would make problems only worse).
ignoring temperature issues during developmen is indeed a mistake, but in this case, there are no issues to begin with.
also, i still don't see any use for graphene in implants. at least none that's anywhere close to getting out of the lab state.
EMP and other radiation. if something like a nuke goes off. you _really_ have more important things to worry about than your implant no longer informing you about incomming emails. also, it may lose function but there is no need to remove it immediately.
summed up. building implantable electronic doesn't pose any more challenges than any regular circuit design does (except maybe the size of your circuitboards which makes layout and routing more difficult).
also. i am not attacking you, your hobbies or areas of interest. it's ok to state that you are interested in graphene applications, quantum computing and neural networks. it's just that there is no need to write an assay about each of them and put it into your introduction. as you noticed, it got so long you even assumed people would not even read it. no point doing it in first place if you ask me.
i'll kindly ignore your claim that i'd have claims aganinst you. as you posted as your topic, you had concerns. i was simply trying to explain why you don't need to be concerned, as most things you mentioned aren't problematic at all.
Some of your points remain. *The point about the size of my article. But it's hard for you to say what power consumption implants have- there are many forms of implants beyond proactively injecting a rare earth magnet under your skin (most likely purchased online or salvaged from a hard drive?), and although the majority of electrodes use short signals that are small pulses, someday, constant power supply at 3.3V and 5V may be used.
(Why are you using your differences in Kelvin? It's inconsistent... You know that difference for Kelvin and Centigrade and Celsius are relatively the exact same, scale omitted and difference only into account. And, room temperature in Celsius is around 20-21C, but temperature matters for the most sensitive of equipment- optical electronic components, or components generating a large amount of waste heat, which can border beyond safe operating temperatures.)
Beyond that, there aren't any continuous power implants that I've seen on this website running around 40mA, but the day will come when these arrive and my only concern is that the community plans ahead before attempting implanting devices of this nature.
I thought it would have been clear that I wasn't discussing the rare-earth implants but instead, more complicated IC implanting...
Despite the currently low probability of general EMP damage:
There are a genuine amount of people concerned about what would happen should a high powered solar flare or focused EMP pulse weapon be broadcast into civilian areas. Their option should this happen would be to replace the item with a new one.
This should translate to a genuine percentage of this community of people who eventually will choose to implant sensitive integrated circuitry underneath their skin- an area where replacing the electronic item means having to painfully retrieve their implant and replace it with a new one by tearing apart their skin. (This isn't as simple as a post-college tattoo removal, mind you *wink* :-) )
You could call it paranoia, but hardening IC's from radiologic noise can mean the difference between grafting yourself open should it fail to operate.
This is the age-old tale of strengthening the dam before the monsoon. If you choose to place something within your body, plan ahead into the future.
There's also the topic which I haven't grazed: What would happen in the event of an electrocution? This is also a form of noise, as it's energy added into a system which cannot account for it. I'll leave this for later.
Engineers have reasons for adding items to components. There's a reason why laptop LCD displays carry copper jackets on the back of the panel. You're working with precise equipment that's difficult to replace. Immediate or delayed removal- the fact of the matter is- it will need to be invasively removed.
These problems that I suggest are future issues, not immediate ones. It's important to be organized and plan ahead for the future. No one at this moment is attempting to embed IC's into their skin, or even current hungry motors and lasing devices. But no one knows where the future will take this.
It would be wonderful for community members to read about the novel Kansius Device, a device operating on these principles, with the end result meaning tat severe burns can incur from radiofrequency noise affecting underlying non-organic metallic material in the body.
Finally, addressing the graphene for implants:
That's great! You don't see a reason to use graphene for implants. That means that I actually have a reason for being here then. Hopefully you'll see a reason soon. :-)
The latter of your post addresses less important smaller things so I'll stay off of it and just say- I want to have results speak for me, as in the actions of the devices I create and theorize.
Slowly and slowly, this won't be a challenge to see if I can get you to completely agree with me, but to advance the progress of the community. Nothing that I warn of seems to be an immediate risk, but they are risks- and any CS or SWE undergrad major knows, building a system that's fundamentally flawed will always leave you with a flawed system- no matter how many upgrades you give it in the future. It's important to start safe now, to make sure that a reliable system of implanting is used.
I cite every article I reference... This is the difference between unproven and fact. The matter is, if academia agrees on something, then academia is usually right. Proven uses of graphene happen to be one of these things!
Now I love debating- but I am a new member afterall, ThomasEgi, no fair, I should at least get to know a little about the person I'm debating with and other members of the community before I start bopping around with random administrators! *wink* :-)
I agree that the concerns you raised are indeed concerns, but I'm not sure that there are as pressing as this forum is designed to handle. At least for me, I have no issue with opening myself and removing faulty implants. I fully expect that the coating of my magnet implant will degrade to the point where the it must be removed. I went into the installation operation knowing this. From what I've seen, most people here don't have an issue with opening themselves to install something that may or may not need to be removed within weeks. Really, its spelled out in the description in the "Who we are" section and the FAQs.
"Grinders believe in action, our bodies the experiment."
"As grinders, we not only aim to bring about the ideals of transhumanism
by making small, step-by-step improvements in the here and now, but also
to make them more accessible to the public (given some pain)."
While an MRI scan would cause major problems with our current and future implants, if we wait around trying to find a way to fix this issue then we would not have implants for a long time. This looking into issues with future implants, trying to make them as safe as products sold to the masses (which here in America will sue you if your hot coffee is hot) is what is leading transhumanism to stagnancy, or so I believe. I'm not going to wait for someone to make a completely safe, super long life implant which I can buy and install. I want to be involved with the bleeding edge of this tech (literally). I want to be that guinea pig that may end up with scars, but that got to experience things never felt by a majority of our species! I want to be the first one in my area to have a binary clock showing through my skin, that get everyone talking about grinding! So maybe I didn't seal it properly. So maybe I have to have it cut out. It was cut into me. I knew the risks. It was worth it.
Would graphene have made an implant safer? (I haven't read up on graphene, I'm merely using it as a placeholder). Lets say it would have been safer to use it.
Is it possible for me to get graphene this week? This month? Do I have to ability to incorporate it in this implant, with the equipment I have in my garage?
If not, well, I know the implant will be safe enough to not kill me, as it is. So graphene is, to me, useless.
I can only speak for myself, and the attitudes I described are only my observances of this community. I know that not everyone feels quite the same way about grinding.
But talking about an EMP caused by a nuke, or implants that ONE DAY might use more than microwatts (technological trends seem to be pointed towards minimizing power draw, so the ONE DAY where we see such power hungry implants will hopefully be long after we no longer need biological bodies) seems to be like going on a forum for gardeners and talking about what kind of radiation shielding will be needed if a nuke goes off or if pesticide-resistant grasshoppers evolve.
That is Future Me's problem, and Future Me will probably tackle those problems the same way that Current Me is tackling these problems: with what is on hand.
I'm glad to see you, we can always use more academically minded people.
please don't take what ThomasEgi says too personally, he tends to be rather pessimistic, but often that's a good thing, since it balances the overly optimistic new comers we get around here.
I hadn't heard of using nacre as a bioproofing material before, but it sounds interesting, if it binds to flesh and bone as well as you claim, I wonder if it could be helpful with building transdermals... do you know what the downsides of nacre are? i.e. why are mainstream implants not bioproofed with it?
i use kelvin because it's the scientific standard unit to use for temperature differences (for differences of °C values,too).
currently available power sources that would be implantable aren't really capable of delivering enough energy to significantly heat up the implant anyway,let alone the entire body. aside from all that, shielding the heat would only increase your problems as it would lead to further temperature raise. it's a lot better to conduct the waste heat away and keep the temperature stable. also, for shielding heat i'd recommend aerogel and multi-layer space blankets.
what i do and who i am should be irrelevant. what counts is the value of information. but since you think it increases "fairness" here is what i do: amongst other things, i build circuits. for 7 years now. i have a pretty complete education covering mechanical, electrical and electronical engineering. i design, build, test and sell custom made mixed signal circuits for a living. including programming of microcontrollers, CPLD, and pretty much everything else you can find on a circuit board. occasionally i also build messuring equipment so i am well aware what it means to deal with noise and how badly electromagetic fields can ruin your day.
as i said twice already. the concerns you raise are valid for building military grade equipment or space vehicles. but most are of no concern for implants.
we simply have to work with whatever is available in order to make any progress. if you have a list of dristributors for nacre and graphene aswell as applications to use them for, please put them on the wiki into the list of material sources.
Welcome to the community, Faust. As you have undoubtedly realised by now, we tend to look at an issue from all angles, examining the pros and cons, and actively posting our opinions about each idea presented. ThomasEgi was merely responding to the ideas you put forth. Please do not continue to misinterpret this as a personal attack. Even the comments about the length of your post were meant for your benefit. The average length of a post is two to three paragraphs.
Try to limit your posts to cover a single topic rather than putting your entire resume into one post. (Just kidding. I'm not accusing you of doing that.)
Lastly, please do not resort to unfounded accusations. If you really believe that most of us got our magnetic implants from discarded hard drives, you have probably not read through the extensive discussions about magnet size, material, strength, and bioproofing located elsewhere on this site. I urge you to read them. They are quite informative and demonstrate the process this community goes through to minimize the sort of risks that concern you.
I look forward to hearing more about your ideas.
Okay, sorry about the delay, I'll try to get these 3 new comments at once without taking too long!
@MrSticky- wonderful. If it's not an issue to you, then it's understandable.
@AmmonRa- Nacre isn't hard to produce, but it takes time, as the main process used for manufacture is similar the process biology uses. On top of that, the industry uses silicon mainly for it's reduction of time required for production (:-) but silicon isn't as effective at shielding away heat at small levels) I'll try to get comparison data (I'm going to be short of time for the next week maybe) The chemical composition of Nacre is very common, calcium carbonate- but like the allotrope (structural formation) of carbon known as graphene, the material gains it's identity mainly from it's formation: the chemical composition plays less of a role.
Allotropes prove that materials that didn't have certain characteristics gain new characteristics based solely on how they're organized- something that's very exciting for Material Science- it means there is an entire world of structural materials useful for developing products in the future.
Nacre is a fairly nascent discovery in the field of Material Science.
@ThomasEgi- you're a realist- and skepticism is appreciated. It's the only weapon against pseudoscience in any academic arena. I hope you don't misconstrue me for launching ad-hom against you- I was honestly wondering if you've worked with graphene before.
All shielding and hardening devices have to maintain a "Death Star" (Not really, it's mainly a small extrusion inside of the shielding, but Star Wars has a good illustration :-) ) hole, which is included in the DARPA hardening article. This is to maintain circulation and ventilation of waste heat.
When I produce a material source for either allotrope of carbon or calcium carbonate- it will be a process, as allotropy can be formed from common items arranged in very finely structured ways.
@mkabala- Got it.
I don't need any curriculum vitae. Please try to understand the feeling going through my mind when I stumbled on this forum and realize that I wasn't insane- because there were other people who (to an extent) shared my single most eccentric interest.
It's wonderful to meet you all! I'll be around whenever possible.
Nacre really sounds interesting, mainly for the "bonding" part.
But there is one thing I really don't quite get yet:
"but silicon isn't as effective at shielding away heat at small levels"
what heat do you want to shield against?
do you want to keep heat away from the implant or do you want to keept heat inside the implant and away from the flesh?
If it is the second: where is the heat supposed to go instead?