Grindhouse Wetwares Update: HELEDD and Nervous System - Nervous System Communication

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  • Hate to break it to you, but it's a bit more than 4 grand.
    4k just for the MEA, plus the cost of the device to interface with it, and the cost of a private surgeon to implant it and the cost to travel to the surgeon because you probably can't find one near you willing to do it.

    I figure it works out something like this:
    4k for MEA
    ~1k for other components
    ~10k for surgeon
    ~3k for travel
    total: ~18k
    I hope it can be done for under 20k, but I'm interested in other people's estimates.

    That still doesn't put me off though, I'd happily pay that much for a working neural interface.
  • Regardless, if I had the money, I would happily pay it to get it done.
  • I care little for money. I only wish to have enough to 1) survive, and 2) help me transcend my biological limitations by acquiring resources I need. I would much prefer if money wasn't needed at all. It's the only thing slowing me down in life, and I cannot wait for the day we can cast it aside. I see great potential in 3D printing for allowing us to get resources we need cheaply. Well not right now since its still a relatively new technology, but even now you can build your own for $150 in parts, or buy one for $400-$700.
  • Agreed on that, BK.  I hope money goes away real soon, whether it's because the JP Morgans and Goldman Sachs of the world make the economy so fragile that it simply collapses; or if it's time is almost up, anyway.

  • 3k for travel? where and for how long are you traveling? I did three months in Europe, from Ukraine to Paris and back, on that, including my plane ticket to and from JFK
  • bsharbi 
    I said 3k because I think that's a reasonable upper bound. It should cover flights to/from anywhere in the world, and accommodation, you will probably want to wait a couple of weeks to recover before travelling home, both because you will be in better shape to travel and because it'd be a good idea to stay near the surgeon just in case there are any complications.

    But yeah, in most cases it would probably be less than that.
  • Re. the earlier discussion on the MEA implant:  I've been doing a lot of research recently in preparation for a preliminary feasibility analysis.  I've been combing through Warwick's scientific literature on the subject, and even his autobiography "I, Cyborg" which also contains a bit of technical information.

    I can't find the interview I'm thinking of offhand, but Warwick did say in an interview that the reason why he had his implant removed was because, as part of the experiment, he wanted to test the extraction process (don't ask me why).  He also has written that because the wires coming out of his arm were frequently bent (for checking for signs of infection, maintaining the connector pad, etc.), seventeen of the wires snapped and only three of his electrodes still had a connection by the time the implant was taken out, so if he had kept it in any longer, he probably would've lost them all anyway.

    This brings me to the subdermal vs. transdermal debate.  It appears that his original design for the implant was loosely based off of his original RFID implant:  completely subdermal, powered by an induction coil, connected to a transceiver and encased in glass.  The reason why he switched to a transdermal design was because, with the technology of a decade ago, the implant would've been too big.  Now, a couple years ago, @SixEcho was doing some interesting, though preliminary, work with transdermals, and IIRC, he had some success in getting PTFE to bind to the skin.  However, if all we're transferring is power and data, I'm not quite convinced that a transdermal interface is really worth it.

    Personally, my preference would be to look into a completely subdermal implant first, and then switch to a transdermal if the former is found to be infeasible.  While this isn't anything like a final specification, my ideal size for subdermal supporting electronics would be a tube, about the size of a cigarette (a little shorter and wider than that), but I'd call it feasible if we can get it to be smaller than Circadia/HELEDD.  I'm fairly confident we could pull that off with some mini-PCBs and a few of the smaller components from Texas Instruments.

    That leaves the actual array.  The Utah array, I think, was originally designed for simple experiments rather than a practical long-term interface, hence why it's so temporary.  The idea was to implant the array into a chicken, then kill the chicken and extract the array once you've recorded the data you needed.  For some reason, people frown on the idea of doing that to a human, so we may want something longer-term.  If we decide to attempt manufacturing our own array rather than pay retail on the Utah array, we may as well try to make it more suitable to a long-term interface; that carbon-fiber array mentioned earlier is a nice example.
  • edited July 2013
    I really am intrigued by this and wish I had something to contribute, but you guys are out of my league on this. Ok, so I used to teach Anatomy, Physiology, and Microbiology in the nursing union and was a supplementary instructor (Think tutor) at a community college. I can read research article like novels. I've worked as a cardiac nurse and an ER nurse. I've got the biological sciences down, but know very little about electronics unfortunately. It's kindof my project to learn.

    I'm starting on one those little 150 electronic projects for idiots kits. Then I'm going to learn to use arduino stuff. After that, I'm going to build an EEG at home project. My issue is software. It seems I'm going to have to learn to write some basic code stuff just to be able to interface it. I'd rather just buy something like a powerlab. They're pretty nice, but I can't afford to use the software associated with them. After this, I'll be ready to consider Neural interface type stuff. It's unfortunately at least a five year learning curve by my count.
    It's difficult because rather than having various specialists, it's like we each have to reinvent the wheel.
  • I disagree, Cassox. The fact that not everyone here is a EE is a strength for biohacking, imo. Grinding is a movement that covers so many disciplines-- biology, chemistry, EE, surgical practice, neurology, and various specializations thereof--that no one person is capable of knowing everything pertinent. Our whole is greater than the sum of our parts.

    In my short time contributing here, I've had EE questions answered by @ThomasEgi, legal questions answered by @DirectorX, surgical practice questions answered by you, Cassox. I've been pointed towards mounds of resources, from books to academic papers to videos to wiki articles. I beliieve I've learned more in the last 3 months than in the year prior. Most of the knowledge needed to progress is here, containes in the minds of a group of helpful, friendly, competent, and driven individuals. I can't imagine a more healthy environment for discovery and success :)
  • Alright, job change recently has left me with much more available funds. Whom do I need negotiate with on buying one of these meshes? :)
  • IanIan
    edited September 2013
    @Cassox:  Chances are, you do have something to contribute; probably not now, in the initial design phase, but later, when we're figuring out what to do with it.

    @mitravelus:  The company that @Lucas_Dimoveo and I were in contact with earlier was this one, Blackrock Microsystems.  They're the ones you want to send the sales inquiry to.  Keep in mind, though, that these arrays are pretty much useless without the electronic frontend to process, send and receive signals.
  • @Ian hey fair enough, but it can't hurt to slowly accrue necessary materials until I can eventually get it done.
  • @Cassox I'm with you there. I have a fairly solid understanding of bio, chem, physio and electronics, but I have nothing really to contribute. The only real contribution I have is the legal analysis and access to related legal materials. If anyone is looking for that though, I am perfectly willing to look into it. 
  • @purplep and @AmmonRa mentioned that the growth of Glial cells around the electrodes had the potential to cause problems for the Electrode array. Does anyone have any idea what triggers the Glial cells to target the electrodes? I suspect it's some sort of immune response, which means that even if we can't find a material that doesn't trigger the response, we could counteract the response with an anti-rejection drug administered locally. Any thoughts?
  • It's similar to the immune response.  It's the same response the body has to any foreign object, such as a splinter, where the body tries to encapsulate it and then reject it.  One way to go would be to use carbon fiber or something else the body can't detect.  I'm not sure if the anti-rejection drug would work, but I imagine that you'd need to continuously administer it in order for that to work, and that might cause other problems.
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