Methods of acquiring gold and TiN coated N52 + implantation idea + new method of testing coated N52



  • edited June 2017
    The company azind is not going to be able to supply us with the magnets we need. I contacted them and they took over a week to give me any answer and still "beat around the bush" for a while more. They said they could supply TiN coated magnets, went back on it, and did the same for other coatings. Eventually they were honest and said they can't coat magnets with TiN, Parylene, or practically any other coating that would be efficient as a biocompatible layer.

    This is especially weird considering their website still claims to do these coatings. According to them, "we don't do coating in-house and can't manufacture magnets with these particular coatings" even though they told me they could at first and claimed it on their site. I am in the process of contacting other companies. If anybody has any ideas or resources/reliable manufacturers we could use I would appreciate it.

    The coating being layered on the neodymium, even though soft, won't be an issue because the layer fully surrounds the magnet completely counteracting the "cement on sand" issue as I explained above. The coating will hold up fine considering its tensile strength verses the stress it will have to handle, even at the corners. If the coating is compromised the magnet shouldn't be used in the first place making it irrelevant to protecting the inside of the magnet (it will  be able to hold the rare metal enough to stop a majority of it from migrating if that was your concern). Admittedly the Au may not do much in regards to it being a second biocompatible layer since any scratch capable of cracking the outer layer will probably do the same to the gold but the gold will still be helpful with impacts because Au is very soft and is more likely to displace on impact without compromising the coating by filling in holes/flattening instead of flaking (common issue with allot of biocompatible materials). Unfortunately this isn't guaranteed and may cause the Au layer to become too thin. In my opinion this makes gold entirely worth the cost due to efficiency, biocompatibility, and ease of coat testing.

    What do you want in a magnet? What size, coating, etc?

    I should be able to purchase many times more magnets than amount of people who have pledged magnets so an adequate amount of magnets will be able to be tested. We will have a large buffer of failed vs successful magnet coatings.

  • Did the problems start when the word BIOCOMPATIBLE was mentioned?

  • I never mentioned biocompatible for that very reason. I just asked for coatings and didn't specify my intent with the magnets.
  • What would be the point of coating a magnet with parylene if not for biocompatibility? 
  • edited July 2017
    TeknikIr parylene and other common coating such as nickel are used because neodymium is a very fragile rare earth metal and can easily turn into powder under small impacts. Neodymium has a very low tensile strength.

    I am contacting other companies and have confirmed that coating neodymium in copper, gold, then zinc is possible. Zinc coating is another great option for biocompatible magnets and can withstand pH of 5.5-12.5, making my previously mentioned method of testing the magnets still feasible. Zinc is a relatively inexpensive coating material too.

    What size magnets do you guys want? We are very close to reaching our order goal of $240 and have reached $220. Since it's only $20 I am considering beginning the order. Those of you who have pledged money can contact me at [email protected] and we can set up the order. I am actually very surprised that we almost managed to collect the goal for funds and development in under a month, that's incredible. After I look a little bit more into Zn and verify the magnet size all that's left to do is order and test the magnets.
  • I'm not sure zinc is the best outside coating from the little bit of Google searching I have done.  One site called it bioabsorbable.  It sounds to me that it shouldn't be dangerous (maybe even helpful) but the zinc would get absorbed into your system.

    If you are hoping to test if the gold gets exposed using the Stannous chloride test I mentioned before, it won't work with zinc.  Any gold that got dissolved would drop out of solution with the zinc.

    If you have ever found a newer zinc penny that had been lost outside for any length of time they don't hold up very well.

    Aside from it being eventually absorbed, it should still have the gold under it (although probably not tested) to keep it safe.  

    I'd like to hear some other people's opinions on the zinc coating.  What about adding yet another layer over the zinc like parylene?  
  • If it comes down to a group purchase and needed funds, I would be happy to contribute $20 to the development. 

    As far as desires: as shown above and in other places, 1X3mm is a great size for a finger. Any more and you have a disfigured finger with a giant lump in it. 

    The people who make other implanted objects intended for long lives inside of bodies like joint replacements have for a number of years used TiN because of its excellent properties for that. However, because heating artificial joints is no problem in the bonding process for the coating, and magnets cannot be heated very much at all, we are seemingly stuck on TiN. Magnets are too finely sized and nuanced compared with giant structures (comparatively).

    So while TiN would be nice, there are other options as you have discussed, such as straight titanium. 

    Basically: I want something safe, with a strong responsiveness (so minimum coating), durable (10 years barring damage done externally), and small. I would think this is basically what everyone is after (for their fingers) but I'll let the others speak for themselves.

    I think we have to recognize that bright, industrious, motivated people like @Amal and @AlexSmith have tried and failed what you are wanting to do and sank way more money into it. I'm just wondering at what point a 3d printer will be able to solve this problem or at least allow for an in-garage development rather than having to try to negotiate with sketchy outfits online...
  • edited July 2017
    @DACPA Thank you for pledging $20 towards development. I am currently receiving pledges and you can contact me/pay through paypal using [email protected] I have spent a long time attempting to find feasible methods/suppliers capable of safely coating N52's with Ti, TiN, etc and have come to the conclusion these coatings are not currently possible. Instead I am exploring parylene, zinc, and gold.

    Majority of 3d printers are not capable of coating something with such precision consistently and aren't a great alternative. Most coatings cannot be used in a 3d printer.

    @birdhandz Zinc does break down in the body (Technically this has very positive effects as our body needs zinc and zinc is a fantastic anti-inflammatory.) but it appears to me that zinc breaks down rather slowly and has a pH safety range of 5.5-12.5 and bleach is 11-13 but can be diluted so only the gold is effected. The testing method would still work, however I am still doing research into the biodegradation of zinc. It appears to work as it is used in some medical implants and dentures, but more research needs to be done so I can give an accurate timeline of zinc degradation to inform members approximately how long they should keep their implant in.

    For those of you who don't know, absolutely no magnets should be implanted forever. All coatings do break down, granted some are very resistant, but even the TiN and Au coated M31's still break down after years. There has been a couple recent reports of M31's rejecting after they had been implanted for a while. Some materials are bioinert and don't cause the immune system to react and can last considerably longer. For this reason titanium would be an incredible coating (Also due to the surprisingly useful oxide layer it forms when it comes into contact with oxygen such as in our blood/bleach), but titanium is unfortunately unavailable.

    I am talking to a manufacturer about a coating called zinc-parylene and am also considering a magnet coated in Au and parylene. If I can verify the biodegradation  of zinc is safe I intend on using zinc-parylene, otherwise parylene will be used.

    All members who have pledged money have been contacted and I have received $30 (plus shipping and a generous donation, thanks you for that) from McSTUFF. The popular vote for magnet size is currently 3x1mm.
  • Just sent in my small pledge.  I was hoping for more than a couple year life expectancy from a magnet implant.  I still want in on this but hope the coatings can last longer than just a couple years.

    Good luck with this project.  Keep us updated.
  • @ThermalWinter Pardon my ignorance, but why is titanium not available? I know it cant be used as plating material, but could other techniques be used?

    What about titanium nitride?
  • edited July 2017
    Thank you for your pledge. I am coating the neodymium in zinc and parylene. I have confirmed that this combination is possible, and I am waiting for their jeweler to confirm if the zinc will properly connect with a gold layer.

    This combination of coatings allows for a long lasting protective coating. I am in the process of determining exactly how long it will last if all of the coatings are intact. @birdhands Magnets unfortunately demagnetize over time. This effect is gradual and can take years. With these particular coatings it is more likely that the magnet is going to demagnetize before your magnet degrades enough to be rejected.

    I am still exploring ways of getting a titanium coating. If I can find a way/company to get them coated I will use my current manufacturer to get gold plated N52's and get them coated with titanium. I am trying really hard to go this route since I am not certain I can test the zinc and parylene coated magnets using the strannous test. I have been trying to find the pH threshold of Parylene C and N, if anybody has a source they could get it from that would be helpful. I'll check with my resources at my community college soon.
  • @Aeris I have already tried both coatings because they are the best coatings for a biocompatible implant. It is very difficult to find suppliers of coated magnets/companies willing to coat Ti and TiN so I've been forced to consider other coatings.

    I was just contacted and I should be receiving a $120 pledge, putting us at $160 confirmed and $220 pledged. I am still in contact with the manufacturer's professional plater and am trying to work things out. I'll update this thread as soon as I have more information
  • What is the total amount of coatings, and what will there composition be exactly?
    How thick are all of these coatings going to cumulatively be?
    Exactly why is Zinc a desired metal, and can I please see supporting sources?

    Questions! #_#

    I'm not familiar with magnets appreciatively degrading in strength unless physically damaged or corroded, what is the source of this information?

    So far, we have a N52 coated in at least one layer of nickel, probably a shell of ni-cu-ni. Then coated with an undetermined thickness of an unknown purity of gold. (This assuming the same eBay distributor linked above is being used).

    Then we are coating it in... pure Zinc? Or is this MgZn alloy? Or is there a more ideal or other alloy I'm not familiar with, I have no idea what material or idea is being referenced. A cursory search shows only MgZn being used as a biodegradable biocoating for implants, I would love to see more supporting evidence if there's more to it. >o>

    Then we are doing a Parylene shell around the sum total of all these layers...

    The characteristics of this compound layering of gold, zinc(+?), copper(?), nickel, and Parylene all into layers are begging to me, questions about cavitations in the Zn if the Parylene failed, creating a bigger hazard when it dissolves? Pockets for bacteria to grow?

    What's the Ld/harmful dose of Zn in the body? Not denying it's good for you... But you can take enough NSAIDs to give yourself ulcers, too.

    I don't think the Zn layer, from experience with people already having a good degree of success with Parylene with an Au undercoat, is as a benefit much as added complexity. More bulk. A layer with inherently soluble properties in the body.

    This is just my two cents, and my input in trying to help improve the development. ^^' By all means, challenge. I love being proved wrong, if I am wrong, and learning. :3

    Earlier it was asked what I would like to see... :3

    Can we get some N55's with no undercoatings at all, simply a perfect layer of TiN anchored strait to NdFeB? Cut out all complexity. Two basic components, as few variables as possible and as maximised volumetric efficiency as possible. :D

    Simplicity is king in engineering. If a good later of TiN can be coated, it's proven to be extremely effective. For like, decades of its use in the medical field in artifical joints.

    The difficulty is the unique conditions it needs to apply. Low heat application, extremely controlled and uniformed thickness. No defects. ;_;

    Bit if you got that perfect shell, with no other coatings, it either needs to make a ceramic fail, or outright shatter the core before. In which case I don't think you'll find any thing in these constraints that would work. ~3~

    Given theoreticals, can we get N128 FeN with that diamond layer, @Cassox? I'll literally bake you a cake. It will be awesome. I'll deliver it too in CA myself. ~3~
  • I've been searching for documentation about using zinc for implants.  I'd like to see any supporting documents especially on the rate of bioabsorption.

    It doesn't look like a zinc coating would be harmful and possibly even helpful but I can't tell how fast it would be absorbed especially considering how thin the coating is likely to be.

    One concern I have is that, if the outer parylene coating is damaged, the zinc would eventually go away leaving a pocket between the damaged parylene and the hopefully still good gold layer.

    One possible advantage of the zinc under the parylene might be the ability to test for zinc in solution.

    I haven't tried this myself but vinegar shouldn't harm parylene but would dissolve zinc.  Sodium hydroxide (lye drain cleaner) is getting a bit harder to find but ammonia is still easily available as a quick test to determine if the parylene coating is damaged.

    The Stannous chloride test for gold probably is not going to work if zinc is over the gold since zinc will precipitate any gold that might be dissolved. 

  • @birdhands you are actually exactly right. I was considering the zinc layer (mgZn @Zerbula) as a way of testing, added protection, and a relatively biosafe material. The old manufacturer didn't like adding parylene over gold or neodymium and zinc was the next best option. Admittedly there isn't much to the zinc layer, it was just the best option out of what I had available. It was my last corner to turn to.

    @Zerbula You have many valid points in your comment but you misunderstood some aspects. The gold I will be using will be very high purity  (If we go that route instead of using the new manufacturer explained later on)

    I considered Ni-Cu-Ni and simply raising the pH to a point that would also degrade Ni and leaving it in the solution to test for Cu degradation but decided against it. I have contacted a new manufacturer that is based in the U.S. and have come to the conclusion the most viable option is a N52 (upgrading to N55 is possible but requires more money to be invested, i'll look into it though) coated in Ni-Cu-Ti.

    The entire purpose of having the other coatings is so I can accurately test the N52's coating integrity in an environment harsher than the human body in order to verify biocompatibility.

    It is possible to get a magnet coated in Au-Ti however it is very expensive and needs an investment of $710 making it not very feasible. Ni-Cu-Ti will cost $360, putting us $120 behind.
  • NdFeB can be chemically tested for, correct? Correct me if I'm wrong.

    What are your thoughts on simply NdFeB core with a Ti coating? If the only reason to have the Ni + Cu are for testing purposes (it isn't for compatibility, I don't think...) shouldn't those layers be omitted? :o

    The manufacturer you are contacting does all process in house? That would be most ideal. ^^

    I'm really prone to wanting to find failure here; if nobody here can, it means we have good magnets. Would still like answers on questions though, or explanations on my misinterpretations. x3x
  • @Zerbula What exactly do you want to know? Also, would you mind posting a source for the process of testing NdFeB? I searched it but couldn't find it. The new manufacturer does them professionally in house so each coat is very expensive. We may even have to raise the price even higher in order to finance the Ni-Cu-Ti which costs $360. Unless we can get upwards of 14/15 magnets sold we may have to raise the price up to $25/$30.

    This is unfortunate but is necessary in order to get the best quality coating and material for something as important as in vivo use.
  • edited July 2017
    - How thick/how many layers are we talking about on these different materials?

    - Why do you say magnets degrade in strength in an appreciably short amount of time?

    - What are your thoughts on simply NdFeB core with a Ti coating?

    - WHAT material/materials are you using? it seems to change every day. 
    I'm not comfortable with how much fluctuation there is in all of this. @Cassox, thank you for continuing to be Awesome. ^^ 
  • This has gone from an estimated $2.50 - $3 cost all the way to $25-$30.

    Makes @AlexSmith 's magnets not seem so expensive.  Remember his estimate was $50 which included shipping and Chloraprep (chlorhexidine gluconate) to sterilize the magnet.

    He has spent over a year and an undisclosed amount of money and hasn't gotten safe enough magnets to sell yet.  Sounds like this idea is not as easy or cheap as it sounded just to get the magnets coated.  Still no guarantee that any of them would end up being safe.

    My original small $13 pledge was donated to the development of these magnets.  I hope this works out but I'm not able to keep sending more money. 
  • edited July 2017
    @birdhandz I am using a method of testing the magnets that I haven't heard of used. I can test the integrity of the magnet in solutions harsher than the human body and accurately test for compromises in the coating.

    The price and material fluctuated because, surprise, it's very difficult to find manufacturers that are professional enough to fully coat the magnet, not degrade the magnet, are willing to use the materials I asked, are capable of doing them in combination, and are willing to do them with a financially feasible cost.

    I am getting everything custom made and carefully tested. You're comparing an $18 magnet to $50, which is $32 off! Honestly, I am offended you are taking this stance considering I just got everything figured out. I have confirmed a capable manufacturer and price and have explained my reasons for everything every step of the way.

    I have explained every material I have used, such as "for testing, biocompatibility, a second biocompatible layer, because the manufacturer required it, etc." I have put allot of time into this and am not asking for any financial return (AlexSmith is, and there's no problem with that.)

    I originally was trying to use TiN, but found out a large majority of manufacturers won't coat TiN, Ti, and parylene and a few others are required to be accompanied with zinc. Gold is incredibly expensive and difficult to have other layers coated on top of, so Cu is a better option as it can still be tested for and is a feasible coating. There was allot more coatings than this that I tried, eventually I found my best options and went over them on this thread. I recently found the new manufacturer and can finally create high quality magnets.

    Chlorhexidine gluconate - $10 for 4 ounces. My price is $18 + $3 shipping in the U.S. There is a high guarantee that allot of them will be safe, that's why I have spent a couple hundred hours on this project finding materials, professionals, and researching material properties and interactions to find the best coatings and develop accurate integrity tests.

    @Zerbula we are talking about singular layers per coating of Ni+Cu+Ti. There isn't allot of fluctuation in this, the only change that has happened in a while was we found a new manufacturer who has a safer coating process and can coat a N52 in Ti. Titanium, as I explained earlier in this thread, is an incredibly biocompatible material and is used for medical in vivo use for people's entire lifetimes, such as stabilizing rods in broken bones. Ti is our best option and this is because of a film that is made when the Ti comes into contact with oxygen, which is also found in high quanitities in our blood and bleach (Meaning it's very useful for testing as the top coating, Ti, won't be effected by the pH at all.)

    I am still talking to the manufacturer about the size of the coatings. This isn't entirely in my control as the plater has to conform to the limits of each coatings material. I'll update you as soon as possible. I am considering taking out the nickel layer I didn't actually request it, it's just the "standard" on a custom magnet. I'll try to remove it so the magnetic ability of the magnet isn't severely hindered.

    Using NdFeB and Ti only would work well, but it is more susceptible to losing magnetism from impact. Would you mind sharing you're method of testing for NdFeB and how noticeable it is? If I remember right you're referring to the slight bubbles that are made when NdFeB comes into contact with water. In  my opinion it's a very poor method of testing for integrity because it can't be used to easily check for small holes. The amount of bubbles released is tiny and you are likely not going to notice a microscopic hole not capable of producing a large enough reaction to create a bubble.

    Copper and gold however can both be easily chemically tested for. Copper can be tested for visually or chemically. It dramatically darkens and the high pH alkaline solution can be tested to see if any copper is in the liquid because the copper layer was exposed and degraded.

    I claimed the magnets degraded because magnets slightly lose their magnetism as they are impacted, which I would suspect would be fairly common because of the magnet placement. I have read multiple threads and users claiming their magnets lost a large portion of their magnetism after a while, which was the basis for my claim earlier this thread.

    There are good reasons for why the price raised. On top of those, I also want you to remember that I am also purchasing 2+ magnets per person in order to account for potential failed coatings. I am also still prioritizing members by if they donate towards development (not to me, but I do appreciate that) and the size of their pledge.

    Everything I do and the reasons for it are on this thread. I hope this comment cleared up your concerns.
  • What method of coating are you having done? Sputtering?
  • Hmm..

    Okay, I'm ready to jump in. I'll start with a disclaimer:

    I designed the M31 and I've done a ton of work on magnets. That said, I'm not an engineer or anything and I acknowledge that I'm fallible. If I seem critical, understand that I'm not trying to shoot this down or anything.. just share my experience. Also, I'm going to go through this step by step. I'm not trying to treat anyone stupid by going through the basics.. just trying to address everything I can.

  • The original idea in this thread was to do a group buy from a company claiming to be able to coat magnets in TiN or Ti or something. You find claims like this sometimes.. but it aint true. The production of rare earth magnets is a thing.. and vapor deposition is a thing. The chances the a single company has both capabilities in-house is slim to none. Usually what these companies have in house is Nickel, copper, and maybe phosphate. Gold is a maybe because the process is so similar. They don't specialize in coatings.. but rare earth magnets oxidize rapidly if there is even a tiny bit of moisture present. So, they make them and then immediately slap on a coating.

    TLDR Point: Be prepared to deal with two companies. Vapor deposition is a specialty and it's either going to be you speaking with the coater or them.

    Another issue that was addressed.. but not well.. is that of heat during the process of vapor deposition. I've had about 10 different companies produce samples and I haven't yet had a single one send me back a magnet which hadn't lost the majority of it's strength. Also, some of the companies refuse to work on the units if they're magnetized. Those that did, never mentioned any problems though. Do you know the curie temp? It's 310 C or so. That's the DO NOT PASS line where permanent damage occurs.. but the working temp is only 80 C. (Some companies claim temps a little higher then this). If you go over 80 C, the magnet will experience a loss of strength. I'm not saying it's impossible to do this. There are a number of other processes which can even do vapor deposition at room temperature.. but I can't even find a company able to do so much less do so affordably.

    TLDR: You will not be able to have the TiN or Ti applied without a loss of strength.
    However, this isn't a big issue. As long as the process doesn't exceed the curie temperature you can have them remagnetized. It's a simple process which brings them right back up to full strength. But it's a process that costs money so you need to account for it.

    Undercoating... Nickel, copper, and zinc are bad for you. I'm not saying that they can't be used, but some of your statements make it sound like one or the other are ok.. they aren't. You don't eat zinc.. you eat zinc gluconate, or zinc acetate, or one of a hundred other zinc salts. Drawing the conclusion that Zinc is safe is kind of like saying that sodium is safe. No.. if you were at Grindfest.. you know that you don't fuck with Sodium metal. None of these things are desirable; however, it's ok because we are either going to coat them with something biocompatible or we are going to cut them the fuck out if they fail, right?

    TLDR: When thinking about the undercoating.. chose the one that provides the best mechanical characteristic because you can't get around it's potential toxicity if it was actually allowed to break down completely.. If it's breaking down, then the neo is also going to be exposed and it too has toxicity.

    So far, everything I've talked about is just stuff I think you need to consider. The next section is going to be the actual pitfalls as to why TiN fails.

  • The one thing I haven't seen anyone ask here is..

    Why aren't Dangerous Things.. Cyberise.. etc. selling these things now? Some people have had success with M31's but obviously Amal felt that the methods weren't good enough. Alex from cyberise me has played with a few batches as well.. and yet they aren't being marketed. I know of two other people who have already had batches made.. which failed testing. I've had about 10 batches of magnets coated from different companies and I've given up on both TiN and Ti.

    Why is this? And what are you going to do differently?
  • ThermalWinter  I wasn't trying to insult you and I apologize if it sounded that way.  I was just thinking that these started out at $10 +$3 shipping and then went to $18 + $3 shipping.  Then you mentioned possibly needing to raise the price to $25 or $30 + (I assume) $3 shipping.

    I understand you are not trying to make a profit and Alex wanted to make a small profit to help finance his other implants like the firefly implants.  If his magnets were going to be sold at twice the cost to give a good profit (which is probably estimating the profit high) , they are not really massively overpriced.  He has spent over a year trying to get safe magnets and so far has failed.  That means whatever it cost him trying this so far hasn't made him any money yet unless I missed something. 
    The main thing that turned me off from getting a magnet implant was your comment that absolutely no magnets should be implanted forever.  I have also seen the Subdermal Implant Data thread and the Possible m31 rejection after ~2 years thread.  I was under the obviously mistaken idea that, if the magnet didn't reject soon after implanting it and it didn't get damaged from some external accident, that it should be good for many years if not for life. 

    I don't currently have any implants unless you count tattoos.  My tattoos are over 25 years old and, besides a little fading, they will last me a lifetime.  I hoped any implants would last that long but now see that they (at least the magnets) are not that good yet.  The tattoos were professionally done and legal so, yes, I am likely older (not necessarily more mature) than most if not all the other members here.

    Cassox Thanks for chiming in here and great job with the write up on biocompatibility.  That helped explain a lot of things to me.
  • edited July 2017
    I just noticed this question:

    Would you mind sharing you're method of testing for NdFeB and how noticeable it is? If I remember right you're referring to the slight
    bubbles that are made when NdFeB comes into contact with water. In  my
    opinion it's a very poor method of testing for integrity because it
    can't be used to easily check for small holes. The amount of bubbles
    released is tiny and you are likely not going to notice a microscopic
    hole not capable of producing a large enough reaction to create a

    This wasn't my method and I don't have time to find the post where I first saw it right now.  I was expecting to see bubbles but I think (if I remember right) that the reaction caused a rust like stain which could be seen if you wiped the tested magnet off with a paper towel.

    If you check the link above for Cassox's write up on biocompatibility, you can find links to other pages where he shows other testing methods.

    EDIT:  Here's the spot where I found the hot soapy water test information.
  • Thermalwinter, I want to reiterate that my interest isn't in "shutting this down." If you don't have an answer to that last question I totally understand. I'm not sure most people even understand why the TiN magnets have such a strong tendency to fail. I'd like to hear your input about this before continuing. It's pretty much the step I'm stuck on. I have some ideas about it though. I don't want to influence you until I hear what you're thinking. Sometimes it's difficult to get across inflection via a text medium. I'm seriously not assuming you didn't consider this stuff but I haven't seen it addressed. And if you haven't, no big deal. Let's talk about it.
  • edited July 2017
    The new manufacturer we are using (which is why the price has increased) can do a large majority of coatings with the restriction of cost feasibility. The current set of 25 N52s coated in Ni+Cu+Ti has been confirmed to be able to bond well and will cost $360 for the magnets alone. I will personally cover the testing costs.

    The magnet will be subjected to a wide range of temperatures (they claim it doesn't exceed 300 C, I'm waiting for a response for the exact temperature) and it will be remagnetized at the end of the coating procedure.

    There seems to be a misunderstanding regarding the undercoatings as I never claimed they were safe, I even stated my concerns with zinc's biotoxiciy in regards to prolonged zinc exposure. My claim that "it's a fantastic anti inflammatory" is "because  products of zinc corrosion suppress the activities of inflammatory and smooth muscle cells." 

    As I mentioned above, the zinc from the old manufacturer is intended as a way of helping other coatings bond. In the new magnet this bonding coating is the Ni. We are still determining the micron thickness of each individual coating, I'll update this thread as soon as I get new information.

    Cassox that has been a question of mine for quite a while. It appears to me that a majority of magnets fail because of improper coating procedures and temperatures that effect the strength of the magnet. Second in line is most users who attempt to get biocompatible magnets aren't capable of safely testing the magnet. I will be using an effective testing method I personally haven't seen anybody consider.

    @Birdhandz with certain coatings you are not wrong. However our body is a very rough environment for foreign objects to be in regardless if they invoke an immune response. With most bioinert materials, especially coatings like parylene, you have to factor in the corrosion of the coating. With other coatings such as Ti you don't necessarily have this problem as this metal is used in long term medical implants. I also stated that magnets lose their power relatively gradually over the timeframe of a few years, this is due to large amounts of small impacts the magnet will have to endure because of the implant placement.

    While this effect is genuinely real it is also entirely in your control aslong as your biocompatible coating is intact. Be careful with your magnet. Cassox if you happen to know more about this than I do I would appreciate your input

    I believe NdFeB releases CO2 when it comes into contact with water which is the only sort of efficient indicator the coating has been compromised. The "rust" like substance made from this reaction wouldn't be enough to test for holes in the coating a few microns thick. In my opinion the reaction doesn't create enough CO2 to be substantial as a test.

    Cassox I appreciate your input and if you have anything else to add I would welcome it. The entire purpose of putting this thread on here was so others could input their individual perspectives.
    This thread is completely different then what it started out as. Since then I have implemented many methods of ensuring people get effective magnets. I am still using the prioritization of donations and large orders method but am buying 2 magnets per person. 

    We have an investor who has invested $100 on top of his investment earlier this month of $120. There is also a couple users who are considering investing. This puts us at $260 received and $80 currently pledged.
  • These magnets can lose strength over time but it's over decades not years. Also parylene doesn't corrode.
    What is this test that you're talking about? If you're talking about testing for the presence of copper, this approach has been done with nickel. Furthermore, in terms of having the coating procedure performed correctly, why do you believe this? That me and Amal and Alex and two other people.. who have gone through multiple vendors each.. we all had the coatings performed incorrectly and then we failed to test them correctly?

    Furthermore, you believe that the vendor you've contacted knows the secret to making this work? So far, I see absolutely nothing occurring here to circumvent the exact same problems that each and every person who've tried this have had. You haven't tried to speak to any of the people who have done this already either. What you're describing right now is how the very earliest failed TiN magnets were made. If you do this as you currently plan to, they will fail. You won't need a fancy test either. They will fail within 30 days in saline.

    I think you should consider a redesign.
  • edited July 2017
    If you're raising money in order to do this, why not consider something that hasn't been done yet? Electroplating of Platinum is really promising for example.
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