Gender fluidity in biohacking?

edited February 2016 in Community
Hi everyone, this conversation came up at BodyHacking Con last weekend, and I'd like to extend it to the Internet: How many folks in the community describe themselves as gender fluid? Do you feel, in light of expanding yourself in a transhumanist sense, that gender isn't an important part of your identity? The conversation didn't last long at the conference, and obviously some people weren't there. I'd love to hear your perspective. Also, I see the queer biohacking post below, but I think this addresses a different matter.
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  • I don't feel that biohacking effects gender or vice versa. I think some people in non-binary cliques or groups can be drawn to biohacking because of the lack of social stigma, but truly I don't think there is a relationship between them at all. Any gender or lack of gender can biohack.

    If you're looking for statistical information, jot me down as a white male cis biohacker.
  • I consider myself genderpunk- to me, gender seems like an outdated concept that I'm personally eager to move past. I've never had a real affinity towards stereotypically male or female things, but still quite easily fell in line with my default afab gender as the path of least resistance- it's only recently that I've started pushing harder against those defaults.

    I feel like an agender mindset can mesh really well with transhumanist themes in general (meat bodies being relatively unimportant as compared to the mind), but possibly has less in common with biohacking in particular.
  • You forgot the link Max


    I stand by what I said at the conference. The only value is what you bring to the table.

    I would also like to reference the post I made a year or so ago (BOOP) about Donna Haraway, and the cyborg manifesto. I think it's requisite reading for anyone who is curious about this topic.  She put forth that inequality on this things would disappear as we made them fluid through technology.
  • I agree with @FrankMatheson this is not about sex OR gender. As tempted as I am to post a rant about how genderfluity and bisexual are the. Same thing ultimately, I won't for now....
  • At the end of the day, we are all animals. If you want to say that there is something that people do that isn't about sex or gender, you're going to be wrong most of the time.

    On top of that, trans people are the first Grinders. Respect where respect is due.
  • I think that the people who lost limbs and came up with creative solutions circa roman times have a solid claim to the first biohackers.
  • Fair enough. Thoe then we could talk about gender fluidity in early cultures, and of course, drug use for altered states.

    The point is, it's all part of the mix. Just because it isn't important to oneself doesn't mean that it's not important.
  • I think civilizations like the Aztecs used to drill holes in the skull. Also, pirates... okay not really... But if you consider the Egyptians, they thought they were doing things for the deceased afterlife.

    In one sense, I guess you could count something so trivial as clipping fingernails to be a form of 'body modification for practical benefit'. I say this loosely. C_c
  • Agreed and then I would say instead of practical list say enhanced or repaired, like prosthetics.
  • edited February 2016
    While I think that it is interesting to note the similarities between genderqueer and transhumanism/grinding (esp. the parallels in the attitude towards altering the body into one's liking - a possible direction to get people into grinding perhaps?), I'm not sure it is useful to find out if there are more gender fluid people among the grinders.
  • edited February 2016
    Agreed adding on to that, I think that it is a bad idea to try and establish a stereotype when ther is not one.... People come from all walks of life here, should one of many be hailed over the others? If we want to see this grow people can't feel like they are stereotyped by others just for being here or doing this.
  • So I did! Thanks for catching it, Glims.

    I have a feeling most of the people replying right now identify as male or female. The question isn't, "What do X people bring to the table?" but whether the notion that mind over meat is a comforting perspective for someone who doesn't feel comfortable with a binary system. And frankly, if you don't identify as gender fluid, explaining things on behalf of people who do doesn't really help. Though, if gender fluid folks don't exist on this board, that's probably answer enough, right?
  • I don't mean for this to be rude in any way and I have no issues with people choices.

    My example of what this conversation could do to biohacking is this. Growing up for me and seeing a rainbow never meant anything but "hey it's a rainbow" and " maybe there's a lot of gold at the end of it!" We tried as hell to see the end and get there. Obviously we didn't and there wasn't but now a rainbow is attributed to "it's a gay thing". I do not like or think it would be a wise idea to try and link this to gender anything but rather a movement to use technology to its fullest potential.

    I'm sorry if I offend but it's really easy for something to be shunned simply by putting a type of person on it.

    I'm neither gay nor fluid of any sort and I still wouldn't want it attributed to anything related to me aside from I love tech and want to use it.
  • edited February 2016
    I honestly don't see any reason that someone bringing in that "I am X, I am Y' brings any change to the nature.


    This may signify tied connotations of physiology, such as how hormones may interact with some nootropics or chemicals, or how some physiology differences may tie in due to physical formation between sexes.

    But the fundamental idea is that a body is still a body, correct? Pigment of skin or sexual orientation or religion does not make any difference in that you still need to keep surgical operating field clean and sterile. The skin cuts as human skin should still cut. one won't "block out" RFID signal more than another.


    Do not color me at all as someone who is against feminism, sexual equality, social rights, etc. But I hate reading these articles because they just preach, to me, something that I never even considered an argument. People are universally equal and each have different capacities and strengths and weaknesses. I don't need someone telling me that I am oppressing them by thinking the thoughts I am, because I am not. X_X

    To suggest I oppose a group because I do not openly automatically support it... I find that harassing. I support the cause, but it is not my place to fight for the cause one believes in when I have my own priorities and agendas to adress. But I digress. People are equal. And people should bring to the table what they can. That is what truly gives them their value among a community. Not everyone is going to be a heavy hitter or possibly anything more than simply a member of a group who listens, thinks, and responds with their ideas and perceptions. But they still contribute. <3

    Gender, X, Y, somewhere between, something else... something I am unaware of.... All of these. These may strongly incorporate who we are, or they may not. that is up to the individual to determine, as much as it is how they choose to identify. It shouldn't be of any more relevance than someone's physiology or skin tone or religion, and as such it should not be something that sparks offensive or necessitates defense. It should not be a focal point, that is not our mission.

    "Grinders are passionate individuals who believe the tools and knowledge of science belong to everyone. We practice functional body modification in an effort to improve the human condition.

    Grinders believe in action, our bodies the experiment"

    There is simply nothing else in this. There is no addendum relating to XX or Buddhism or Native American descent... We practice what we practice to improve the HUMAN condition. This is the idea that unites Grinders, no other petty ties of any other aspect of one person to another, at least from what I see in my own perception. I see each person here as another human, regardless of identified Male or Asian or Muslim or Homosexual. None of that matters, Humans. <3
  • @Zerbula, very well put. Grinders here to make the world better for everyone. Regardless of your identification, whether it be sexual, gender, ethnic, or religious.
  • It seems like some people are getting pretty defensive that there might be an attraction to transhumanism and biohacking to genderfluid people... just because some people are attracted to a thing doesn't change the nature of that thing for anyone else. Genderfluid people are always going to be in the minority.

    Just because there is an attraction doesn't mean there would be a strong association.
  • I think it's more along the lines of two major points

    A: Any group that delves hard into gender stuff gets heated and attracts trolls like rats to the sandwich. We don't need or want that.

    B: We see it as dividing along arbitrary lines that have no value here, like grouping ourselves by eye color and if your belly button goes in or out. Doesn't matter, only people that care aren't caring for biohacking reasons, and that's not why we're here.
  • edited February 2016
  • Ha yikes, this thing went off the rails. While I appreciate so many people chiming in on how they don't care about other people's sexuality in the community, that isn't the question (and, of course, doesn't matter). I'm saying I'd love to hear from the people who identify as gender fluid. Cis folks, you matter too, but right now I'm not asking you.
  • But our feelings! ;o;



    Also curious on seeing other perceptions. ^^
  • Just in case this wasn't made clear, the question was asked about gender being an important part of defining _your_ identity, not if you want to talk about it, or if you think that it's important for other people or anything else. So everyone try to use "I" statements, and not speak for others.

    If you never think something is an argument, or that things aren't an issue for you, then it means that it isn't _for_you_. This doesn't mean that it isn't for others. And there are many more others than there are of you. Please keep that in mind.
  • @tekniklr I wouldn't say people are getting defensive per say. I really couldn't care less but I do know what happens if we through a group to a certain thing.

    How am I doing with I"s glims :).

    Let me ask this what happened one these fluid people came out and announced what they felt? What is the first thing people think when they see a rainbow flag?

    I'll go a different route. What other things do we attribute to a certain people that is true? Do Jews have a larger nose? I know people with some huge noses that are Christian. Putting a title on a group is not good, it should be for all and not a label. This subject is controversial enough with out parading it about with one group of people. Trying to claim something just because it has some following will do nothing but hurt a movement.

    That rant being said to answer some questions from the original post

    @maxatmic
    I am not gender fluid and I'm not 100% sure what that is. I'm guessing it's kinda bisexual and a mix of guy wanting to be more girl but going between the two?. I put myself as a man to every meaning. I also do not put myself in to the transhumanism movement what so ever. I feel I am more doing this to improve myself not try and be apart of anything more than I already am. I love tech and that's the extent of my movement.

    I think I covered the question. Sorry I'm not a fluid person but hey it's input.
  • I'm of the firm opinion that biohacking is connected to gender, as are so many other things. As we go forward and biohacks become more visible I think it will become even more so. Traditionally technology and science have been connected with masculinity, and still are to a huge extent, so I think that the experiences of straight cis-men won't reflect the diversity of gender on the topic since those folks are well within their traditional gender roles.

    I consider myself genderqueer, which for me is more about subverting gender roles as opposed to how I feel about my own gender. In that context I find my magnet implants to enhance that position because it expands my senses, something normally connected to the feminine.
  • edited February 2016
    Hey, binary folks chiming in on this, few quick sidenotes:

    - Labels are still important to a lot of people. They help a person learn more about their own identity and find others who have similar experiences and lifestyles. As long as they are self chosen. I forget where i read this but just ask any cat... getting into a box is significantly different than being put into a box :)

    - It'd be great if we could let non binary folks chat without chiming in and re-framing the discussion on weather or not their experiences are 'useful' to us. Every time I've seen someone mention gender, it always comes back to only skills matter. It's great that we all can agree on that, but not every discussion needs to be about weather or not these experiences directly contribute to our goals. 

    - Cis folks: This isn't about us. We've got an entire form to work with here (1,214 threads, actually!); we don't need to but in on every. single. post. If someone asks about the biohacking scene in Brussels and you live in Kentucky US, you're not gonna derail the topic to what's happening in Kentucky because the internet means we can all collaborate now so location means nothing.

    This is the second time I've seen a thread like this get responses about how "It doesn't matter, you're still useful to us so stop thinking it matters." Let's just chill and stop framing it on us, k? Thanks!
  • And what if we're nonbinary and STILL think it doesn't matter?
  • Then that's up to the non-binary people to decide.

    So this is about the gender fluid people rather than just a head count? If that's the case I'll shut up now since I'm one of those who thinks we should keep quiet while the minority speaks.
  • Exactly, would just like to hear gender fluid folks' positions. I also started a thread about this on Reddit, though, unfortunately, it got brutally down voted. Maybe we can revive it and open the conversation to people who aren't here?


  • edited March 2016
    [Image removed by mod (BirdMachine) because we're not channer trash.]
    me right now. 
  • I personally would love to hear input on this matter from someone who has different eyes. Interested to see an answer. ^^



    Each of us can say what we think, but ultimately the real purpose of this thread is to discuss the views collectively most of us do not see. :o Don't even care if it conflicted with my own or others beliefs, still deserves full respect. :)

    A fan of seeing discussion and ideas evolve in a forum. But also, I'm not a huge one to seeing ideas be at least completely derailed. Maybe just a little. >~<




    @Dragon5 it's not that I disagree with it... I just really don't understand how to fully understand that in my head on the spot. @_@ Please tell me I'm not the only one trying to figure that out completely.
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