implanted RFID cloners

Donovan880Donovan880
edited December 2015 in RFID/NFC
Hi Guys,

Just a thought I had do you think an implantable cloner would be possible to make? I work in IT and in my new role I will be investigating It and security. I wanted to see your thoughts as this would be handy but to supply power would be awkward. 

Would that be possible or too dangerous having the DC current running through embedded circuitry due to the degrading of components or coatings?

I know we have the thread about the DC currents through piercings that was recently re opened that also reminded me of this thought I had about 3 months ago. 
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Comments

  • MeanderpaulMeanderpaul
    The first thing to pop in my head is the size would be awkward if not painful as hell. Where would you put it?
  • Donovan880Donovan880
    This is what I was wondering for suggestions has anyone else seen that Amal is looking for beta testers for a chip 22mm long 8mm wide and I believe 0.4mm thick. Would it be able to be in something like this? 

    The hand maybe too odd due to all the little bones and the structure so maybe in the forearm above the bone below the hair i am not sure on the technical term for that area. 
  • MeanderpaulMeanderpaul
    I don't believe a cloner could fit in that small of a space. Could you be more specific about the forearm I have hair from my shoulders to my finger tips.

    Something that would have to read process and copy/write to another device isn't going to be all that small. I know of readers that plug into computers that are the size of a flash drive but that device uses a pc to process the data
  • gbitgbit
    @Donovan880

    Where was the search for betatesters posted ?
  • Donovan880Donovan880
    edited December 2015
    @gbit it was in the RFID implantees group on Facebook run by Amal.


    @Meanderpaul sorry realized I was vague there, not really a hairy person to be honest. I have put a picture below to show where, there is a lot of room there so the chip could be bigger than the NFC one I mentioned earlier. What do you think?

    image

    Link to the image is here if it does not display
  • MeanderpaulMeanderpaul
    I don't believe you would be able to shrink a cloner to the size you would need. I'm not going to say it's not possible because some one some where could make a small enough cloner.

    That spot does have a fair amount of meat and as an example take a look at circadia, that thing is very large but they did implant it.

    To answer the would it fit I'd say depends how small you can get the device. you would probably be better off trying to silicone it.
  • AlexSmithAlexSmith
    Depending on the type of card you want to clone, I would suggest a passive cloner, not having a battery makes it much smaller and safer.
  • ElectricFeelElectricFeel
    A passive cloner seems to be an oxymoron, how would that even work? RFIDs do nothing without power, so unless you were already using the RFID in a field, nothing would be possible to clone.
  • AlexSmithAlexSmith
    Sort of, the idea behind a "passive cloner" is that it uses power from a normal reader, so you put the card to be copied and the cloner up to a reader on the wall, and it copies the card using power from the reader, then you take the real card away and just used the copy
  • MeanderpaulMeanderpaul
    I don't think it fits what @donovan880 was looking to do. Seemed he wanted an active one implanted but I could be wrong. That said it seems quite interesting and the size isn't that large from what I could make out from the link.
  • Donovan880Donovan880
    @Meanderpaul I agree the size is not small enough yet but I wanted to see what people thought about the general idea. The passive cloner if that works as you say it does looks like a good size to use, just hope I done have to plus a usb in my arm :) 

    The main reason I thought of this is as I am forever getting security passes to new buildings instead of caring them all the time ( I do leave them in the draw on my desk a lot) My idea was to be able to swipe the on my arm then clone the card to my XEMI implant, that would also increase my security as a person eliminating loss.

    a thought If I implanted a coated passive reader then held the card on my arm (on the reader) then scanned in you think that it should then have been cloned too? Does that not depend on the reader as some are of poor build so the magnetic field is barely reading the card. 
  • MeanderpaulMeanderpaul
    That is true I used to use a card that had to be held on the reader for a few seconds and wiggled around just to get a read and then on a different reader I could be 4in away from it (not exaggerating). The only differences I could see was one was an entry point the other was a secure room (room had 4in read).

    Have you considered tryin talk to the IT in the buildings to accept the same information to consolidate it down to one card/RFID chip? Consider offering to use your own card/chip when getting badged they may like it because it would save them whatever cost is breaks down to for a card to be made.

    I know some hospitals charge $30 for a card that scans and Liberty mutual buildings are capable of cross using badges once they get approval through security.

    If you do use a chip make sure it is compatible with their system and have the id number that goes with that chip. A lot of places enter the number and then assign person info to the number in their system (I.e photo,name,company etc). So each card access COULD be used as long as they don't have another card with that number in their system.

    I hope all that is clear I kinda jump around with my thoughts.
  • Donovan880Donovan880
    @Meanderpaul Well I am the IT in the building :) IT is my trade so I like to automate everything I can to make my life simple.

    I am just on my notice period as I got offered a new job where I will be going to many different buildings still with all different cards. The main idea I had was if I got enough people that liked the idea and we got this working was to be able to leave the cards in my safe under my desk and clone them when i was going to that site. 

    Does this seem like a viable idea to you? I know it would require a lot of work but do you feel it would be possible? We could then help others on here that would like to be able to do the same. 
  • MeanderpaulMeanderpaul
    I can't say it's a bad idea. I was gonna clone individually my access cards to my RFID depending what site I was going to be at that day/week/month. It seems like you want the same.

    It just seems like you are adding one more step then needed by making a passive cloner in your arm. Why not just a small rewritable with a handy dandy scanner? I believe this would appeal to others far more then a larger object.
  • Donovan880Donovan880
    Hmm good point I was going for empty pockets :) I do have the cloner from DT but that didn't work for my employers site and key cards.

    Here is the one I have.
  • MeanderpaulMeanderpaul
    I don't mean drag the scanner around with you but put whatever buildings access card on your implant that you will be using.

    Do you hit multiple buildings with different access cards in the same day without returning to where ever you call base?

    Wouldn't you be carrying around a pocket full of scan cards?

    As to it not working you may not have a compatible type of card. Do you have access to a proxmark being in the IT department or similar device or access to an old reader that's has since been decommissioned? I remember reading some place that the only difference between reading and writing is a jumper wire on the board. You may be able to make a reader that can be used.
  • Donovan880Donovan880
    This is very true about the pocket of cards. Most of the company's are sisters so all have the same type of cards, i guess i'll register my hand on the systems there so the implant does seem over the top just would be a gimmick that would only be sightly practical.
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