M31 Rejection Collection Thread

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  • edited February 2016
    Poking the white area with a sterile needle caused it to erupt a bunch of yellow-tan pus. I did pull-ups yesterday which may have triggered this reaction. Which is strange because I have done pull-ups in the past without any discomfort. I do the pull ups with my ring finger resting above my other fingers to minimize pressure. After draining all of the pus, a lot of the discomfort has gone away and the pressure of the swelling has gone down in some places. I'm going to give it a few days to decide to remove it. Thanks for the advice.
  • edited February 2016
    >~< That's possibly what could have done it.

    Watch it super closely. 

    Returning to aftercare procedures in the event that it may be on the edge of rejecting may possibly help. Start sterilizing and covering if its opened at all, to minimise infection potential if it's exposed; More infection won't help. Ibuprofen and maybe ice for swelling. 

    Pus like that is a really bad sign, if I understand correctly. 

    One last thing to watch for is see if the coating can be identified to be corrupted. I don't know if you have a baseline to identify magnetic strength, but after a magnet starts getting broken down by the body, it can loose it's magnetic force from breakdown of magnetic material. Try to gauge if it's gotten any weaker. Look for any traces of evidence of black oxidation in the skin as well.



    Read these, and this thread itself.., You will get a better idea of the scopes of what things are what, maybe be able to make a bit of a better determination/choice ^^

  • Hi, I have an M31 that rejected after ~15 months. An close up analysis of the magnet revealed that it cracked down the middle and tore the coating. I can't figure out what activity caused it to break, I don't remember hitting it on anything. I went to be Saturday and it appeared fine. Woke up Sunday and it was swollen. Got it pulled Thursday and photographed it.
    Worth noting is that the magnet was pretty shallow, enough to make a small bump on my skin, though not actually protrude through the skin as some of the others I have seen in photos.
    Here are the photos.
  • @Raven
    You were smart to get it out when you did, I have to wonder if that could have killed you had you left it in. I am thankful for this thread. It has shown me a lot to look out for once I get my magnets. The one thing that bothers me is that your doesn't seem tobe due to soloy to bad after care, but rather the magnet its self cracking. I am convinced that it was defective from the beginning, most likely the coating was thinner there than it should have been or maybe there might have been some pinholes in the coating. That would ultimately lead to corrosion and the dropped scuba tank being the final nail in the coffin for that magnet. To me though your story shows that these magnets are safer than they are given credit more often than not.

    Sincerely,
    John Doe
  • @JohnDoe I'm not sure about that, the magnet seemed well in its way out and probably would have come out on its own in a matter of days. Though certainly I wouldn't recommend just waiting for it to come out.
    As far as the root cause sorry about not being clear about the scuba tank - I did NOT drop it on this magnet, it was on my paralyene magnet which is fine actually. That's the whole concerning thing with this - there was no significant trauma I can identify leading to this at all. I literally went to sleep with it fine and woke up with it swollen. I've even tried to think of the previous few days but I can't think of anything that could have caused it.
  • @Raven What does the edge of the tearing on the coating look like? Flakey? Ragged? is it really clean and smooth or does it look like the coating is flaking apart around there?

    I know that TiN suffers if the coating is too think or too thin. I know it's on orders of microns, but see if there's any telltale sign of maybe it being thinner and pinholeing, or thinker and flaking apart. if it's a possibility.   


    Please make sure to take good care of that finger as it heals. you don't want infection to go in to a traumatised location... ^^'
  • @zerbula you should be able to see it in the photos, does the link work properly? I'm mainly using the photos to inspect it my self - much larger and easier to see. It pretty much just looks like a crack that it split along. The magnet looks like it was bent and cracked in a line along the bend line, the coating lifted slightly on one side of the crack.

    Yea, it seems to be healing pretty well. There what looks like basically a blood blister. Presumably the cavity left by the magnet has filled with blood. It doesn't hurt as long as I don't bump it into anything. The incision for the extraction was small so that helps too.
  • @Raven My bad... Tired C_C. Your pictures work. ^^

    The entire magnet is fractured in half... @[email protected]

    The question is... was it's structure fractured because of weakening on the inside from the magnet being dissolved, or did sheer force/weakness in the magnets lead to failure and bring the coating down?

    Was there any black oxidation in the wound at all, or any evidence of the magnet itself being damaged? And also, how strong is the magnet right now? does it have all of its strength or has it lost a measurable amount of it's force?

    The NdFeB can be broken down by the body. It's bad for it, but it also reduces it's magnetism.  


    The last aspect I might ask is has the magnet been damaged or hit? Ever? It COULD have held itself together from its own magnetism, maybe, until the body got purchase through the coating eventually? Don't quote me on that, but if like "oh yeah, last month it got smashed, but that was a month ago"... It may explain it.. Maybe... Don't quote me on that. X_X
  • @Zerbula All good.
    That is indeed the million dollar question as it were - was the coating compromised first causing the structural failure?
    I'm going to try to get some more/better images of it to analyse. 
    Does anyone know how bodily fluids actually react with NdFeB? Does it soften, crumble, expand, weather, turn colors? What does are the products of the chemical reactions? It may help identify the tell tale signs in the images.

    As far as oxidation in the wound, none was visible through the skin, we didn't see any when the magnet actually came out but there was a fair bit of blood and pus going on so it may well have gone unnoticed.(The incision was off to the side of the magnet not directly above it) It's hard to tell exactly if it's lost any strength but the day before it came out it was able to actually lift more than before (presumably owing to being closer to the surface)

    Btw what are the effects if NdFeB on the body? I haven't found much of any source on that, most MSDSs just talk about it irritating skin a eyes and such.

    As far as was it ever hit before, well sure it's been hit, surely most people's fingers suffer some impacts. There didn't seem to be any particularly memorable ones recently though. I have another magnet, a paralyene one, in my ring finger, I've dropped a scuba tank about a year or so ago on that one and it's fine, there definitely wasn't anything quite so intense that happened to this one.
  • If it was able to lift more than before, more likely than not the magnet was unable to be broken down by the body in the amount of time it was in there. There should be a measurable weakening in it's force.

    Internal exposure to NdFeB results in heavy metal poisoning. The body will break it down over time and reduce it's NdFeB structure, reducing its strength as it breaks down.

    I do not know exactly what to look for in terms of structure of magnetic material, but oxidation and damaged material ate good signs.


    I'd love to steal someone who knows more about this...


    @cassox @glims @chironex, maybe?

  • So I took some more photos. It looks to me like the coating was compromised first, which cause the magnet to structurally weaken and eventually fracture. There's an additional crack in the coating almost perpendicular to the main break line, which seems to have lifted too, which is probably consistent with the magnet reacting with extracellular fluid. the fact that you can see lifting of the coating on either side of the main fracture indicates to me that the coating lifted before the main fracture occurred.
    There's also what appear to be little tiny starting cracks along the edge if you look at the extra close up pictures.
    http://imgur.com/a/M4mFv <- New Photos here
    If you'e just joining this there's the link to the previously posted photos http://imgur.com/a/PCJxo
  • And this was from the first batch of M31s? 
  • edited February 2016
    I was thinking the same thing ever to hear what @glims @chrionex @cassox has to say about it.... Vary odd situation as a whole.... From how slowly it rejected to how quickly and suddenly it failed with no obvious reason(s).

    EDIT:
    Looking at those pictures again the coating seems to have failed in a Y like shape.
  • @JohnDoe I strongly suspect the smaller crack that's raise came first and the subsequent oxidation lead to the magnet cracking which pulled apart the coating all the way across.
  • What bugs me is that bulge coming out of it. I thought it was tissue at first....
  • I don't know if it has any relevance in the situation, but this is a possibility; Was the magnet autoclaved rather than chemically sterilized? This can stress the TiN coating from expansion differences iirc... Maybe this formed micro fractures that just now finally failed? Apart from the heat damaging the magnet, it's another failure point of the process.

    If you had this performed by somebody who has access to one, its possible. Do you remember if it was autoclaved?
  • @Zerbula yes it was autoclaved due to a labeling mistake. That would be an interesting thing to test if any one has a m31 they can fry for a test.. and had a way of 'scanning' the surface before an after.

  • I talked to a friend of mine that is highly familiar with metal manufacturing, he pointed out that while it's not necessarily the case it's important to not discount the possibility the stresses within the NdFeB could have stressed the coating causing it to fail, rather than the coating failing due to external stresses.
  • edited February 2016
    @Raven Gut feeling calling this out, but 95% that the Autoclave did this in one method or another. >~< I have never seen or heard of this happening anywhere through reading a lot of things, but that would be a very viable explanation, and so far it doesn't look like there's many other conditions present that would cause this.

    Unique flaw tied to Unique condition. Again, Not positive, but If I understand everything correctly, this is where I would put my money.

    I haven't ever heard of this happening to an TiN m31 before, and it does have untested long term effects of autoclaving, other than just unideal right out of the gate because of Magnetics degradation. This may be a secondary effect of the process, causing the TiN, NdFeB, or both to fail in one orientation or another.



  • @Zerbula That's a valid point and certainly possible... Just a bit strange it would take 15 months to fail, but I can see that happening. I hesitate to just consider the case as "closed" so to say though as that may also not be a factor. I wonder how many people have had m31s as long and how many of those have been claved...are any of them having problems? hmmm
  • I know the amount of people who have the magnet autoclaved is very low, I've only heard of or seen two other people had it done, with no reports of x or y coming out of it later on. I don't know what happened with them. :s

    But it's definitely unusual because of desire to preserve magnetic strength. The only people who get autoclaved magnets are those who either go out of their way to go against procedure, or have it done by someone who does not follow the procedure for whatever reason. >~<

    Certainly not saying case closed. I'm too ignorant to be comfortable making calls I'm not certain of, I don't know enough about everything to say other than to form hypotheses... #_#

  • so i need some advice guys. im very new to bio hacking and i did my first implant like a few days ago. and it seams that the magnet is trying to surface by the looks of it. do you guysa think i should remove it? im thinking it would be better to do now when the wound is still healing then when it has closed a bit. i would like answers as fast as possible, thanks.

  • Pictures and more info. Where did you get it? What is coating? Etc. More the info the better people can help.
  • edited April 2016
    self done job, goldplating and its out now. not the most pretty sight. didnt take any pictures. i took it out to not risk anything and good thing i did, the inside was filled with a brownyellow pus... as said not pretty... but i learned some things from this. don  fuck around and always put the damn goldplated magnets in a supersalty sulotion to check if plating is intact. and also be sooooo much more sterile.... much more. and also i know this is for m31 rejections but you know, i kinda paniced....
  • You did it right. Rejection is still rejection. Where did you get the magnet from?
  • from a hobby store, i must have fucked up majorly and accidentaly swithced the steralized magnet for a non sterelized one. 

    err and err and err again but less and less each time. 
  • Au is among one of the most fragile coatings, very easy to scratch or damage. It's usually not recommended because of how easy it is to compromise the coating while implanting into the body.

    Like mentioned, yes. Perfection or failure in this, it's VERY easy to fail. Even if you have everything done perfectly, and follow all protocol 100% to the letter, there are a few uncontrollable factors that can still cause rejection.

    Human physiology itself is intended to reject foreign matter. Honestly, and don't quote me, I'm not the expert (but I try), I'd say if you did everything perfectly your still looking at a 10% rejection rate at least.

    The wiki is your friend. ^^

    Thank you for sharing your story, always nice to gather more. Most inclined to say coating failure and your body began reacting against the nickel.

    Learn from it, arm yourself with the best setup and plan, and try again when you heal. :D
  • edited April 2016
    actually i have made a google docs for all of the things i do for future references. its is swedish but i could make an english one and invite some people. if anyone is interested that is. i would like this for two reasons, people who are new needs to get referenses and veterans may learn or help newcomers. message me if anyone is interested. 

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