Electro-magnet implants

I was on one of the threads for magnet implants and saw someone suggest using electro magnets instead of rare earth so they could turn them on and off at will. Unfortunately I cannot re-find that thread to add to, and I am not finding anything on electro magnets in the search, so i'm starting this one. From what I do remember of the comments, the idea was not met with much love. But I thought it was interesting, and much more functional than a regular magnet. Not only could you turn it on or off, but also adjust the strength. You could climb straight up steel walls or the side of a ship if you could turn on/off your fingertip palm/magnets. Like a fricking gecko, or spider man. I know, I know, we are talking about major potential for complications here. I get that, and that is exactly why i'm starting this discussion. I, and hopefully others, will be gathering data on the effects of electro-magnets and electrical current on the human body. I will do this mod someday, for sure, and would like to gather all info regarding this type of procedure/technology before I attempt it on myself. I am thinking some kind of battery and/or solar cell in/on a backpack, and leads of some sort coming from the electro magnets to attach said current to, with the current going from the backpack to detachable wires in a wristband or whatever convenient article of clothing you could hold them in that is near the EM leads. But would those leads need to be outside of the skin, or could we in this day in age use some kind of magnetically attaching diodes (is that the right word?) that pass current through a very thin layer of skin so the leads could pick up the juice subdermally? It would be great to be able to attach/detach power without having to keep leads poking out of my skin, buts its certainly not a deal breaker. So whatup? Any info? Any attempts?


  • Way too tired to begin analyzing point by point. I may come back to this if nobody else beats me to it, but the first problems I'll adress: >~<

    *Electromagnetics need space that the body doesn't accommodate easily, if at all.

    *Wiring is tricky

    *Adjusting strength and supplying/restricting power requires interface. 

    *The strength to suspend even a 50 kg body against a vertical surface in focused points would crush tissue very very forcefully. imagine the skin and blood vessels and nerves between the magnets in your hands and the steel of the wall your against. >~<

    Just pointing out first thoughts before I pass out. Sorry. #_#
  • Building on zerbulas comment. You would most certainly destroy the skin between your magnet and said wall. I use glass cups for carrying 125-325lbs pieces of glass. Theses are large cups that have multple seals. You would be better off figuring out how to mod you finger tips to do that.

    Having wires hanging out of your body is a bad idea simply becaise you could get it hung up on ANYTHING. Think about head phone cables and imagnine that happening in your body. One way to POSSIBLY, in the future, power one is through an induction charger. That said you still would need to transfer alot of power and probably damage said skin still.

    Try making an electro magnet with what you would want done and put it in a glove form if you are dead set on this to see what types of things you would be dealing with.

    There are many instructables on making them.


    Ever pinch your finger in a door? Think about that. Your pretty much going to either have the magnet rip out of your hand/finger to attach to a wall or crush all the skin and then rip ot off from trying to support your weight with only a thin layer of skin.
  • As I said, many potential problems. I said this in an attempt to avoid a string of nay saying, and instead persuade a string of ideas to overcome said problems. But, since we've come right out the gate boo-ing, let me address some off those issues in a positive manner. @Zerbula... "Space": I'm a meaty guy, I will find space. "Wiring is tricky": Oh no, something is hard, I better not try for risk of failure. :) "Adjusting strength and supplying/restricting power requires interface": Yes. It certainly does. This interface could come in many forms. It could come in the form of a button in between your thumb and part of your hand the thumb touches, so when your thumb is touching your hand it would be on, but when your thumb is spread out it would be off. Of course this would mean there couldn't be magnets in your thumb because it would need free movement. OR, the button could be in the form of the same way that prosthetic limbs are controlled by its host, by simple muscle control. Shit, how far are we really from actually controlling things simply through thought and impulses? I'm pretty sure its already being done, maybe not on a consumer level, but its being done. "crush tissue": Yes, if using those tiny 3mm magnets most of you guys are installing, then yes. But, an electromagnet can be made in many forms and sizes, and would likely be best utilized by making them wider and more of them. Surface area, pounds per square inch... i'm sure I dont need to explain those concepts to anyone I here, I hope. I can pick up cynder blocks with my ear gauges, so I'm pretty sure that simply increasing the area that the magnets inhabit, or significantly increasing the number of them would grab enough skin to hold a person. Electromagnets have had the capability of being flexible since 1925, so its not crazy to conceive that an electromagnet could be made in any shape and could flex to our movements, allowing for much larger magnets (pads) and more areas it could be placed. (****SIDE NOTE: I noticed that I did not mention my intentions to have them in the feet as well. You would definitely need them in the feet too, not only to create enough grabbing area, but most people simply aren't strong enough to do it with just their hands anyway.) Also, tissue adapts. Tissue that has been traumatized over and over gets tougher. Period.................................................................................@Meanderpaul... "Having wires hanging out of your body is a bad idea": Thats a matter of opinion, and ones ability to be aware of said wires and be careful of them. Not only that, they would look fucking sweet so super bonus. I also thought I made it pretty clear that the leads would be short, if not subdermal, and the wires themselves would only be attached to the power source and whatever article of clothing you ran them through. At most there would be a very short nub or clip protruding the skin for the wires to attach to when in use. The leads and wires could be "break away" incase they get snagged while in use. "would need to transfer alot of power and probably damage said skin still.": If using 115AC from your wall, then yes. But lets put on our thinking caps here. Nikola Tesla built wireless electricity in the early 1900's. You telling me we cant? Bullshit. And as for the ripping of skin, I pretty much summed that up in my responses to Zerbula. 
  • OK. now that we've addressed the public's concerns, does anyone have any info on attempts, or on the long term effects of electricity and electromagnetism on the human body? I am looking at several articles right now but I want to read them thoroughly and check their credibility before posting here. I will be less busy later this week and will be able to share.  
  • ***revision.  my idea of the button in the thumb would actually be better placed in between the pinky and the ring finger, allowing the thumb to still have magnets and be able to grip. The pinky would be the only place without a magnet so you could move it freely. 
  • Okay I admit it.... I was looking into implantating ebows in my finger tips. How ever mine would have been (or may be) controled by my EEG from my guitar project. One of the things I thought of was to wrap a magnet in a electromagnet in a electromagnet and so on and so on.... That's how they make some of the most powerful magnets on earth. For the wiring I was think about using a length of silicon tube (medical grade is a given). And cast it so a zig zag of wire could be place inside allowing for it move as needed. The magnets them selves would go under the pad of the finger. Power would have been provided by the same battery's used in the North Star. After that the major issue you will face is heat generated by the coils. Have fun and don't get your self killed! Just to throw in my (positive) two cents.

    John Doe
  • Since you are not all that open to the criticism which can/could point out flaws I will simply say use breaks in your posts. It makes it easier to read, digest, and respond to specific points and question.

    Good luck.
  • @meanderpaul
    Yea I need to work on writing out ideas, rereading over that that came out a lot more dickish than intended. Sorry about that....
  • Not you john
  • @JohnDoe ... Yes, I believe it was you who I saw bring this up. Sorry everyone immediately shit all over it. Its a fucking brilliant idea, even if our intentions for its function may differ. I also like your idea about the silicon coated zig zag wire. HEAT, yes...... That is an issue. Fortunately, humans are naturally liquid cooled. This alone is not enough to completely offset alot of heat, but its a start. I would also hope that using larger more flexible magnets would help this issue by spreading out the heat and allowing the magnets to require less juice (per a square inch type ratio) and still serve the same purpose. An electro magnet can be long and skinny just like a wire, which could then be weaved back and forth along the fingers and palm, much like the terminals in a motherboard, or a spiral like your electric stove coil. Of course the idea is to keep the implants in "crevises" or places it will not protrude much, and I believe a long wire like e-mag would make this an easy chore as it could be ran in any direction at any angle and stay relatively low profile. 
       So, in your research, did you do any fact checking into the basic long term effects of current and e-mag on the body? I  mean, in terms of nerve damage, cancer, brain damage, stuff like that. 
  • Saline liquid cooling to offset heat? Could be cooled by a radiator or powered chiller......
  • edited May 2016
    dont get all butthurt cause people shit on your idea.  it was a dumb idea and everyone told you why

    gonna file your water-cooled, spiderman-esque, electromagnetic hand crushers right next to the fungus computer and muh crystals.

  • Haha. It never ceases to amaze me just how narrow minded those who think they are on the fringes of science really are. Until it becomes reality and peer reviewed, then they are all the sudden experts on the topic. Thats ok. I just wont let you play with mine. :p
  • edited May 2016
    come back when you have a more realistic idea mr expert :)
  • edited May 2016
    Also @JohnDoe, for the record I think your writing is just fine and not dickish at all. I understand everything you type. Shit, you are the nicest and most well spoken person ive interacted with on here so far. 
  • Can I block un-creative and negative people from threads I start, or do we just have to scroll past their whining?
  • Please note I didn't say impossible. X_x

    The questions I would ask is what occupies the tissues that you have? Blood vessels, nerves, muscle, fat, tendons. There's things in the body that simply cannot be removed or displaced without detriment. Blood flow really shouldn't be interrupted. One reason that we mainly have 3mm magnets instead of say 6mm is because of practical sizing with the interruption of blood flow. :s

    Wiring is scary if it goes bad >~<. You are more than welcome to help the multiple people who are working on it work on it, there are multiple posts about the subject. Instead of telling me it is difficult but not impossible, please read those and understand the reason I say this.

    Surface area may mitigate force. We still have a rule of suspending objects for more than 20 minutes, objects the size of paper clips. The body is much larger. How would you address this?

    What would your power source be? Where would your power source be located? Would be within your hands, or if it was wired, how would you insulate the wires, how would they stretch or bunch, how would they respond to stress or damage. What would they be made of.

    Same with the magnets. Please describe the electromagnets you would use, so ideas and criticisms can be used to evolve the idea. ^^

    Please remember they need to be as unobtrusive to the body as possible, and bio inert. Standard convention for things is not near major nerves, arteries, or joints.

  • edited May 2016
    theres a difference between "uncreative and negative" and "herp derp i want to be able to climb walls with electromagnets implanted in my hands but they need to be magic and not crush my hands in the process.  oh and i need to install a radiator and liquid cooling setup too.

    might as well just install jetpacks in your feet dude, fuck climbing the walls just fly to the top.  
  • edited May 2016
    @ightden Thats a good idea, and already on the drawing board. Do you need to be mad to be creative? Is that your trigger?
  • Guys, please stop. #_#

    One of you has to be right. Prove it with established knowledge and ideas leading to effective theses that can be experimented with. Don't resort to calling each other names or whatever. C_c

    I'd love to see this happen. So please demonstrate to me there's a way to develop this system in the body none of us have seen yet, or there's an arrangement of 'safe' technologies, or develop the 'safe' technologies, to conduct the ideas.

    I think it's fair to pose questions and established information to develop ideas and grow, refine, or filter then out. ^^
  • @Zerbula where are these threads you speak of? I'm not finding them when I type electro magnets into the search. I would love to see them though. What should I type in to find them?
       Like I was saying, the types of electro magnets I would use would be a very basic wire wrapped in another wire design. This way it would stay skinny and could be as long as needed, and completely flexible. This flexibility should allow one to completely customize the route they run the magnet on to (in theory) avoid places that would cause detrimental damage or block blood flow, etc...
       Wire breakage. Yeah. supes scaries. The internal wiring would obviously need to be shielded. Silicon is the first thing that comes to mind, but this is one detail that I am not ready to decide on until I do extensive research on the "side" effects of electricity and magnetism on the body. What I mean is, does the insulation need to only keep current from entering my flesh, or should it have heavier shielding to protect from the less obvious things like like the electrical and magnetic fields themselves? Any constructive input to save me time and research would be appreciated. 
      "rule of suspending objects for more than 20 minutes".. Forgive my newbiness, I am not familiar with this concept. I will have to search for this rule and give a better answer when I understand it better. Do you have a link?
      Location of battery. It would definitely be external. For the purposes I want it for, it would need to be larger than something you could fit under your skin. The battery could go anywhere on your person. As for the connecting wires, I would say that arm and ankle bands could hold the wires securely right next to or right on top of the leads coming from the magnets. How you place the wiring in between the battery and leads is really open to discussion, but it seems pretty simple to me. Just use coiled and/or stretchable wiring and run it through your clothing. Since this is not something that you would be using all the time, you would likely just have one outfit, fitted with the wiring and battery that you only put on when you are going to use the magnets. The battery could just be in a pocket or backpack or something. 
       Unfortunately I will be busy and out of town during the first part of this week, but I would like to research more and draw out a rough design to show you visually what type of magnets and placement i'm thinking, and all the stuff that is difficult to explain in words. I should have more to say by next weekend. 
  • edited May 2016
    A external battery is a really not the best approach, you would be run more wire that need be for that to be done safely. Transdermal ports are the vary cutting edge of what we are doing here. For a climbing situation the skin on the back of the hand will be stretched a lot. My educated guess is that it will be damaged by a climb lasting longer than a few minutes. Powering it through induction will amplify the heat issue and require bigger batterys and more of them. If you want to climb the walls my honest advice would be to look into geko tape. Neat stuff, ultimately the biggest and most difficult to over come issue for implanted electro magnets is not the heat on the surface but rather the heat in side the coils, over time that will add up. Instead of using blood to cool them my thoughts were two have them pulse and to use silver or even gold wire. There by cutting down electrical resistance, the pulsing effect would reduce the time the magnet its self is on while not compromising performance significantly.

    John Doe
  • https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friction#Coefficient_of_friction
    downward pull from a magnet.

    Your not going to be pulling away from a horizontal sheet of metal it will most likely be down so you not only need magnet strength but friction to keep from sliding down and thus ripping the skin from your hands and toes. You need to ensure there will be no lubricants on the metal, such as fingerprints from other spider-men, rain/moisture, bird crap otherwise splat.

    Example of an electronic magnet for a horizontal hanging platform.

    Avg size males body weight "could" be held. Size is way to large for going in the hand.

    I could be wrong but wrapping a neodymium in magnet wire wouldn't boost said strength because the electrons are all ready aligned but you will have either the strength of the electromagnet OR neodymiums which ever is stronger doing most of said gripping.

    We are not uncreative if you can find ways to bypass issues that are brought up with evidence then it's not an issue. You cannot say tesla made a way to transmit power wirelessly and suddenly say "I must be able to do this then!" Also there wasn't any true evidence saying he did it was rumor and some sketches. We can only now power a light bulb in the center of a ring (last I checked).

    When you post something asking questions you need to take the answers given or prove the answer wrong not say we are all nay Sayers and uncreative.

    Show me proof that your fingers and toes won't be crushed.

    Show me the flexible electromagnet that can handle three points of contact while carring 230lbs up a vertical wall where you will also have to traverse glass.

    You haven't shown any of this yet; maybe your gonna develop it. Bravo for that. No one will assist you if you attack what they say calling them uncreative.
  • edited May 2016
    @JohnDoe My idea is not merely for climbing, that was just one example. There are likely thousands of uses for implanted e-mags. It was just one concept. 
      As for the your external battery opinion, I didn't really understand what you were saying because either you mistyped or were a victim of auto correct, which is hilarious considering how I just complimented you on your ability to communicate. ha ha. But from what I understand, you say that there would be too much wiring? In what respect? Do you mean that running the current over longer distances will affect the amount you need to push and the heat generated due to resistance? That is something i've been trying to plug into the equation, especially if using a coiled wire for stretchiness, which all on its own will cause both heat and resistance. 
        Induction does require more push, but to me push is irrelevant. Theres always a bigger (more powerful) battery or power source, and battery's get smaller and more powerful every day. What concerns me is the effect of running that current wireless through the skin. This is another topic I will have to do more research on. Of the wireless electricity that I know that already exists, none of it is supposed to be particularly harmful to humans, in fact it is very passive, but those things are just charging a cell phone or running a led light, not powering e-mags, so the numbers get exponentially silly im sure when you up the your power game. So much research to do...............
  • Request for eplanation has been made. As engineer I'd like to throw in some very rough numbers on why this idea is not working out the way people imagine it.
    @Slick_Nic_Tha_Rula if you need help understanding, please ask for an explanation and I'll try to explain the best i can.

    Let's think about constructing a small electromagnet. To have something to compare to, let's set the M31 as design goal. That's the 3mm diameter neodymium magnet popular for implanting these days. Neodymium magnets come in strength up to ~1.5Tesla

    A 3mm Electromagnet with 1.5T output requires 400 windings. The wire would have to carry 10A. Due to the high current, the wire diameter needs to be at least 0.8mm. This starts to bloat your magnet in size (about 20mm diameter and 10mm thick). If not for the wire thickness you'd have 4m copper wire, with the big diameter that bloats to 25m. That's about 850mOhm resistance for your wire, requiring roughly 12V to drive it into the 10A. Makes 120W total heat loss in the wire's resistance. Physics allows you to increase number of winding and lowering of current but the effects of this cancels out and pretty much results in the same magnet size and power requirements.
    Those are just rough figures for _ideal_ situations. Your real-world scenario would turn out to be far worse.

    For climbing your magnet would have to look a whole lot different, not a whole lot better in terms of size and power requirements tho. Even if you had a suited magnet, it'd be a challenge to control it in a way it would not crush your hands in an instant. Buttons and dials won't do, you need millisecond response time dedicated control circuits for that. Difficult but possible, not to mention very very dangerous.

    The idea is fun but once you go from idea to concept you can't help but notice that there simply is no way to make this work with today's tech.

    tl:dr; to make it work you pretty much need materials superconducting at body-temp.
  • "come back when you have a more realistic idea mr expert :)"

    "theres a difference between "uncreative and negative" and "herp derp i want to be able to climb walls with electromagnets implanted in my hands but they need to be magic and not crush my hands in the process.  oh and i need to install a radiator and liquid cooling setup too.

    might as well just install jetpacks in your feet dude, fuck climbing the walls just fly to the top."

    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ this.

  • I'm honestly wondering if we are just being trolled... This can't be serious. 

    If it is though, I do have one thing to add. Maybe you could use healing crystals to help with the crushed hands issue.
  • @Meanderpaul I was not referring to you as uncreative. A nay sayer for sure, but the uncreative comment was reserved for ightden. And now for trybalwolf.  Despite your objections, at least you sound intelligent and had actual things to say. Some peoples pride comes only by taking it from others. I feel sorry for them, and frankly dont need their lack of imagination to help me with anything. 
  • @ThomasEgi thank you for some actual numbers and research. This is what I have been asking for. I will have to look over it later as I really have to go. I already disagree with your  statement "there simply is no way to make this work with today's tech", which is aside from the fact that ideas should not be limited to only things that "we" can do right now this second, but you have given me a great place to start in terms of overcoming the issues already surrounding this topic. I look forward to further discussion and i will certainly take up your offer of further explanations. 
  • edited May 2016
    Welp. Have fun with your project. I agree with the others here that it just isn't feasible and don't think it is worth much time or consideration. That said, I will be first in line to get it once you work out the kinks.
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