Project Underskin

Has anyone seen this guy? 

I just haven't ever quite stumbled across this little jem. It's being worked on by the same people who made the Fitbit, apparently. Ideas, thoughts? :o

Need to go to bed, it's so late. >~<


  • I remember this , it has been a while I haven't see any news from a lot of time. But noticed it has no shop open nor any technical paper. 
  • I'm confused is this just a battery powered RFID in the hand? The site doesn't give too much information. They mention wearable but the name and look on the illustration appear to be implantable.
  • Well , the idea seams and implantable , I think they called them wearable due to marketing  people know more or less what a wearable is while implant usually seams for medical applications. 

    MY opinion no evidence to back it 
  • It's design fiction. It's not a real thing. If you read through, there is no mention of actual tech.

    We have these, they're called RFID. This is just branding and a fancy landing page.
  • That almost seems like a cash grab and run scheme....
  • I agree with glims that it looks like vapor wear, but the idea does seem to be a little bit more than an RFID chip.

    It seems to have a sort of display that uses illuminated lights. They also hint at some sort of biometrics going on. The device giving you feedback on various things its measuring (like a fitbit). Its all just design though, no actual substance based on what they have shown.

    Pun not intended, but I will leave the typo in.
  • I agree it does apear to be a fitbit with an rfid. The sketch of the rfid part showed a haptic built into it which makes me think it would notify you if it is accessed which seems like an interesting concept.

    Its a shame there isnt any really information showing details or even if it exsists.
  • So what if we actually attempted this?

    The first thing that pops into mind is a northstar mixed with circadia.
    Can we effectively mix a haptic and RFID to function together and off the power one would get from scanning an RFID tag? This would add a level of security to chips that some people would want.

    The second link has mentions of bio chemical power. My assumption is they mean ATP. Can we harness enough of that energy to have it power the RFID haptic? If so can we add more features?
  • I guess one question would be could we dual-purpose a flat-form rfid antenna as an antenna for induction charging as well? 

    What would be ideal would be an implant that had read/write capabilities, (think tap to pay systems if my understanding of the way they function is correct). The implant could gather information and transmit it via rfid. 

    If they could read and write, you could possibly transmit data between people as well, though I don't see a reason for this unless you had other implanted haptic devices, (think rfid telepathy).

    The implant could also include an led which would normally be used only in emergency situations and would function off a small reserve battery or supercap. Of course the user could change this if they wished.  

    This would ideally be charged via induction, though it would be nice if we could develop a kinetic charger ~6 inches long that would be flexible and generate power as it bent beneath the skin.

    sidenote: I joined the real-face club. Hello.
  • so umm... it doesn't have the same intended purpose... but several of those features are included in an implant I'm currently building... would be pretty easy to re-purpose most of my design to this...
  • Coolness. Can't wait to see what you have in the works.
  • Welcome to the real face club!

    I think even if you just tried to keep it simple, like you had said, without and real power requirements so you don't need the back would be the best( until chironex makes his mega battery's).

    Having said that Alex has already made the NFC light what's to say you can't add another bit right? @alexsmith do you know what kind of power a haptic would draw or if this is even possible through RFID?

    I know you mentioned a new implant similar to this and how you love surprises. But are we talking haptic surprises?
  • My device doesn't have any haptics, but I could probably do it... what kind of haptics are you thinking of? the easiest haptic device would be vibration motor similar to a cellphone, but I could in theory do other things like electrodes etc... 
  • I'm not actually sure I would probably say smallest you can with the most impact. First thing that comes to mind are the up bands and fitbits. I could definitely see this as a cool little hey I'm a bio hacker in a handshake (if it can be powered)

    This would give a whole new meaning to a ghost vibration.
  • Ideally this device would be compatible with an implanted bluetooth hub. The hub would take various biometrics from other implanted devices and would relay the collected information to the user and/or others through rfid and haptics like vibrators and leds.
  • ok, now you're just heading toward fantasy land. A bluetooth hub? sounds nice, but just think of the power requirements for something like that. If we want a project to build something like this to be successful, we have to set reasonable goals. It's not like we're a megacorp with a team of engineers working on it.

    To start with: what are the op 5 features you'd like in an implant?
  • Yeah, I'm aware it sounds like that. I'm more just imagining how something like this could function as part of a future modular system. My ideals would be an small vibrator, an led, induction charging. That's three and my wish list is complete. Still unsure though of an ideal purpose for it... I'm assuming bluetoothLE is off the table until we make advances in powering these things?

    One use would be as an implanted notification device that would pair with a mobile phone. But that might be to much to ask for at the present. If bluetooth functionality were on the table to any degree, the implant could vibrate when it disconnected from your device. Similar to many of the bluetooth locators like Tile available now. I wouldn't mind a Tile sized implant. ...or larger.
  • edited May 2016
    vibrator: not something I've done before, but totally doable
    LED: already done, no problem
    induction charging: sort of, inductive power is easy and I've already done it, and charging is simple, but the question is charging what? If I used a tiny lipo battery, I could build this system easily, but so far I've stayed away from using lipos in implants because I feel they are unsafe... but if people don't care about that... to make it up to my standards I would need to use a lifepo4 battery, but they are not available in small enough form factor, and to get them custom made costs on the order of $10k.
    BLE: this is possible. I've been looking into implanted BLE for a while, but until I get the battery issue solved, there is no way to power it.

    yes, I've thought about an implanted notification device, and I'm pretty sure I could build it, ans quite a lot smaller than a Tile too. The only thing holding me back is batteries. 

  • We've discussed induction charging of super-caps before right? I can't remember off the top of my head any of the biggest issues we had with them... 

    I am mainly attracted to them due to the speed at which they can be charged. ....heh. that's an interesting thought... Would it be feasible to charge a super-cap off NFC induction? I am just going to assume that there would be such a small amount of power it wouldn't be worth it...

    Damn the power problem. Imagine an alternate history where battery tech outpaced other tech. I wonder what that world would look like.
  • Super caps simply don't have the energy density needed for this to work. to have enough power to run a system like this you'd need a chironex will tell you amazing things about super caps, but as far as I can tell, at best they only exist in research labs, and at worst don't even exist yet in the energy density needed. but either way, the type of super caps needed to run a system like this are not available for us to use right now. (though I think you should be able to change them fine with NFC).

  • Very interesting. Guess we'll just have to hold out for graphene super caps. ...but until then....
  • I'm thinking a small vibrator with either NFC or RFID would do it for me. I don't think you need the vibration to be all that strong because it's inside you. I think an led would be cool but that's something I see as a usefull thing for having something like BLE on it for connectivity indication.

    I'm thinking this would be more of an upgrade to the existing RFID and NFC platform. Almost every discussion turns to security when RFID and NFC come up in a thread and a little haptic notification would certainly raise that level of security high because you know it was accessed.
  • That said about a haptic how long can will the vibration last if there is the pulsing of an led like the light?
  • The supercaps as they stand are improving steadily. So far i've got a test cap which is 1cm square, .18mm thick and can keep an LED lit for a minute and a half and is fully charged in 1-2 seconds. Not quiet ready for use, but getting far better. Been delayed by stuff i ordered in the mail 2 months ago that just hasn't arrived.  Oh the wonders of ordering shit from china. 
  • Meanderpaul with regard to security, do you mean the haptic notification is just to let you know when someone reads the tag? why not just get a cryptography secure chip which cannot be read without the correct password? 

    about the length of vibration. the reason the light only flashes intermittently is because the phone is in the NFC polling stage of the protocol. it never establishes a connection because there is no NFC micro chip on the other side, just an LED. With a real NFC chip it will provide constant power.

    chironex that's pretty good. but I still can't buy super caps like that to use in my system. so as it stands, batteries are the only option for now. What is you cap's farads? 

  • Yes I do mean it in that sense. Obviously you are right about the password but you still don't have any way of know if it was accessed only that it has a passcode on it.

    Also it doesn't necessarily have to be a security thing. It's also just a notification so in other versions it could be just about anything.
  • I'm looking at this not so much as an rfid tag or storage device, as an implanted BLE peripheral for a mobile device. It's interesting to see everyones ideas of what this would look like.

  • edited May 2016
    Yea vary interesting, I have heard that sometimes in hacking when one can't solve a problem it is posted to be discussed in hypothetics. Then said hacker will take the thoughts and ideas of others people and sell them.... One of those 3D printer pens did that, I am not saying that Zerbula is doing that by any means, just feel like something like that is going on here.... That said cool things here!!

    John Doe
  • See, I envision a time in the (hopefully) near future when we have a network of sensors, lights, vibrators, etc. that are linked to an implanted hub. I'm just hoping that this implant could be compatible with such a hub, even if we don't intend on creating such a hub for some time. 

    It could be that an implant like this would be the method we would use to allow the hub to communicate data it collects to the user.

    Perhaps an irregular heartbeat would be communicated by a certain light pattern or vibration sequence.

    I'm thinking not so much of these implants as being purely standalone units, but of how they could contribute as modular parts of a future system.
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