questions about DIY magnet implants?

edited December 2015 in Magnets
okay, I'm new here (so, hello you all! nice to meet you!), since I recently got interested in magnet implants.

I'm totally a DIY person (in fact, that's why I came here - since you don't look like the crowd who screams "INFECTION RISK!!!" at the sight of a DIYer), so I  want to do it myself.

I'm well aware that the safest magnets are the m31 coated in TiN, but apart from being quite expensive, they're out of stock 'till further notice.

I also know that the wiki says to stay away from sugru, mainly for the infection risks (right?), but apart from that, and assuming the magnet is first gold-plated, and then sugru-ed with a quite thick coat (at least 0.5mm on each side), would there be any other risks?, like, compared to sylicone or parylene? (I have to insist: apart from infection risks. it's my body, I know it well, and I know the chances of me getting an infection are slim). I may not be concerned about infection, but I definitely don't want to end up with metal poisoning or toxic things inside my finger...

also, I've read that heat degrades performance, but how much? I mean, would it be possible to get the magnet to a jeweler and have him gold-plate (or rhodium plate, whatever), it with a thicker coat? even if the magnet lost some strength, assuming I start with a N52... I should still feel it, right? (though gold-plating or rhodium-plating won't be cheap, but I wanna consider all my options).


  • k lets just grind the sugru roll to a stop really quick. The stuff is garbage. Falls apart, degrades and is really good way to get really really sick. if you take two magnets and heat one of them above a temperature that you'd feel comfortable holding it. So fairly warm. You'll notice one of them, the one you heated is significantly weaker. The force falls off really quickly. So when your whole sensor is all of a mm thick, you want it to be as strong as possible otherwise you're losing signal. Also cause it's so thin it's easier to mess up. Also i dunno how you think rhodium or gold coating works but it doesn't get particularly hot in most cases. Normally we say avoid heat because people autoclave the things and destroy them. But also it means no using hot curing resins or other coatings.
  • edited December 2015
    oh, so the main problem with sugru is actually stability.... then that's a problem. and I'd guess hot glue (apart from the impossibility to achieve an uniform coating) is equally bad in terms of stability....

    anyway, would it work if it was in a thicker layer? like, thin things usually break easily, but if you add thickness, they start being tougher. I could go up to a mm thickness.. I would end up with a big magnet (since the smallest gold-plated ones I've seen are 3x1.5 mm), but that shouldn't be a problem as long as the coating is stable. right?

    (okay, I get it, those are not the best idea, but I just want to be like, really sure that they're not even an option before deciding to spend more money on it)

    I will try the heat and see for myself, since I want to learn. (I do have some larger magnets lying around to test)

    as for the coatings, then a thick enough gold or rhodium plating, would work good? I'm not talking about autoclaves here, just the electroplating. I thought it was done at somewhat high temperature.

    also, do I really need gold-plated magnets if I'm going to have them coated again? I ask 'cause I've seen smaller ones in Ni-Cu-Ni, yet nothing in gold...

    anyway, thank you for your tips. this is starting to look good. especially if a jeweler can coat my magnet in gold or rhodium and make it mostly safe.
  • you want as thin a coating as possible while still maintaining bioproof-ness.  if you glob on a bunch of hot glue/sugru and stick it inside you youll get no sensitivity (so whats the point?) and have a chunk of metal and glue stuck in you for no reason -and it will most likely still reject out of you eventually anyways.

    just wait for the m31 to be back.
  • You know there's always parylene c. Many people have had success with them. Basically, silicone coated like haworth does is pretty lame. The coating is huge which significantly diminishes the effect. The field drops off too rapidly to wrap these magnets on a wall of silicone. Furthermore, if you cut one out of the silicone they are not testing at a strength that you should get from an n52. This is presumably because of heat on the coating process. Parylene is better, but there are issues. I've seen units where the parylene can be scraped off with a finger nail. I've gotten about five different companies to run samples and I've never been all that happy with the result.

    The idea behind the m31 is a coating as thin or thinner than parylene and more durable than silicone. The design is great but getting the actual manufacturing process down is more difficult than you'd think especially due to the size of the unit. I'm sorry that the m31s are taking so long but I'm sure you guys understand that they really do need to be perfect.
  • Also with silicone, it dampens the vibration. Anything that's flexible and compressible will absorb vibrations.
  • @ElectricFeel technically true, I'd estimate the dampening from the silicone is rather small. Main loss of sensitivity from thick coating is due to the force distributing over a greater surface.
  • @niky45 I had the same questions, so I asked Amal when DT would get more in stock. It'll only be about 15-45 days from now when he expects to get a new batch. Hopefully they turn out right. I know its hard waiting.

    @cassox I know u mentioned this in another thread, but any luck getting in contact with the iron nitride magnet manufacturers?
  • MTS, ohh, that sounds promising. however, I'm not sure I'll be able to wait that long, lol.

    anyway, I asked the jeweler about the gold plating. he said he really can't know how much a 5um plating (the thickest they do) would last inside the skin (I would have been surprised if he knew), but he wouldn't think it would last a lot. is like gold-plated jewelry, that sooner or later leaves the inner metal exposed.

    also, he told me it would cost around €40-60, BUT, I think he may have misunderstood me and thought I was talking about cm and not mm. (I suspect most people don't ask for such small things to be plated, after all)

    I also have to ask him about temperatures... I don't want the gold-plating to destroy the magnet.

    so I wanted to ask you guys another couple questions.

    1. what about epoxy-coating? I've found this: . would it last more than a thin gold plating? is epoxy safe? (as in, non-toxic).

    2. assuming I decided to go with the jeweler gold-plating my magnet... would it be good to, in addition to the gold, add a thin hot-glue coat? like, very thin, just to protect the gold from friction. that way, even if the hot glue is compromised, I'd still have a thick-ish gold plating, so it wouldn't be toxic.

    as for parylene, what would be it's pros and cons? is it stable enough? (when compared to, say, a thick gold plating).
  • 1. unless you get epoxy that's specified for longtime implantation: no
    2. "would it be good', no. there are more than 20 different kinds of base materials used as hot-glue. the list of additives is even longer. hot glue is certainly not bio-safe.
  • @ThomasEgi: then, how about sugru? as a thin coat for protecting the gold plating? would that be safe? (note I'm not talking about stability now.... since that's what the gold plating is for.)
  • @niky45 suguru is not something you should put in your body either. The overall number of materials you can safely put in your body are pretty limited to begin with, suitable magnet coatings even more so. That's why the TiN coating was developed.
    If you want something alternative you may want to explore things like uv-curing paint. Maybe, just maybe you can find something that's suitable for implantation.
  • >"you may want to explore things like uv-curing paint."
    hey, I have UV nail gel polish! .... though I can't even know what's made of. (I mean, it's chinese... god knows what they use to make it).

    BUT, if I look around, I may be able to locally find a reputable store which lists ingredients, and then check every ingredient toxicity...

    you just gave me an idea. that thing is hard as hell, if I'm able to find a non-toxic one, I wouldn't even need the thicker gold coating.

  • I'd recommend to run actual material tests. There are a couple which can be run at home. @cassox don't you have like a set of tests to run on materials?
  • There are the materials testing that I did back when cass first did the TiN coatings and we were looking at the other magnets coatings. Is this what you mean?
  • @niky45 regardless of ingredient toxicity I highly doubt you would want to implant anything coated in UV curing gel nail polish... Even if the ingredients are non-toxic, they are most likely not biosafe. The body would recognize it as a foreign body and reject it, or just break down the coating and begin eating away at the magnet, introducing heavy metals to your blood stream. 

    Please don't use the nail polish...
  • That first run of tests wasnt adequate. The youngs modulus stuff was good of course but iodine isn't reactive with nickel. Its just not a good enough reducing agent so the gas wouldn't have revealed any surface flaws. I have a fantastic new protocol using dimethyglyoxime. If anyone's interested I have a full write up pdf I'll post.

    It won't work in this case though because its very specific to something with a nickel undercoat.. something thats being phased out altogether.

    In terms of the tests im using now/wish I could do now, ill make a post tommorow.
  • edited December 2015
    just cover it in sugru/hotglue/nail polish then dude.  and then by the time its done rejecting the m31's will be back in stock and you'll have learned a lesson.  you cant wait a few weeks/months to put a magnet inside you that will hopefully be there for many years/decades/your life?
  • So then it sounds like I would be better off not implanting my original m31s and wait for the new batch?

    I can do that.
  • The nail polish thing is a good idea... I mean it's a terrible idea; dont implant it. But its a good idea to demonstrate the analysis of a substance and to develop an effective methodology. If you follow through on it, ill jump on board and try to find things you make miss etc. I was just reading about a dude who blew out his liver injecting dmso. He was convinced it was safe because he really didn't understand what he was reading. Im not saying you'd screw it up but it would be interesting to see what you find.
  • Well trybal, there was a great section of the batch that continues to pass all tests including being in my finger for a nice long time. Ive had a couple people send me magnets that rejected that I ran through a slew of tests on and they checked out as fine meaning it was infection not coating failure. There were a couple though that did have coating failures although usually with a corresponding reason. I know a girl whose magnet cracked after an mri for example. The first m31s good, but the new batch is going to be fantastic. A lot of little tweaks under the hood.
  • Link to the guy blowing out his liver?

  • @trybalwolf: how's that so? I mean, the magnets would be gold-coated, and then, coated with UV gel, just to protect the gold... (only, the gold wouldn't be double-thick, I would just get them already coated).

    as for my body rejecting it... that's like rejecting a piercing, right? in that, there are no actual risks, except that you don't have the implant (or piercing) inside anymore... (oh, and you could end with a scar, but I'm not too concerned over getting a minor scar in my finger, you know...)

    @Cassox: so, what would be a reasonable test to run at home? ... soak in saltwater? plain water? ... I'm not going to get anything too complicated just for testing... I better put it inside, and keep an eye on it.

    as for the undercoat, nope, not nickel. I wouldn't be getting them to the jeweler for a thick gold plating, but I would get them already gold-coated. I'm not putting nickel inside my finger, that thing gives allergies.

    as for the whole UV gel, yeah, I'm now really interested in trying it, if only for science. I mean, I WILL know if the cover breaks and the magnet is exposed to my flesh, right? (so I can rush to dig it out - yeah, I may be a little... hard on myself) ... and I'm not really worried about rejection, only risk is getting a scar... alright, I'll risk that.

    so, if you have any tips, or any ingredients I should avoid 'cause toxicity, or anything... pleas, tell me.

    @ightden: first, I kinda doubt that *any* magnet will last a lifetime. even TiN coated, it's not the same as solid titanium. like a gold ring lasts forever, but a gold plated one will last only a while.

    as for waiting or not, I'm a violinist, so I wanted to use the christmas break to do it, and leave my finger a rest before having to play again. also, while this is not my main argument, I'm not made of money. yeah, I could save for an m31 (and maybe will), but if I can do this at half the cost, and be 80% as safe, for 50% of the time (i.e. say it will break after 5 years), then I'd prefer it this way. plus I'm a DIY person, I really don't mind risking a bit for a quite great benefit (be it in terms of money, or of learning what not to do).

    but yeah, I may do it (not before being sure that the magnet hasn't a good chance of being exposed, mind you). if it rejects, well, I'll learn my lesson, and stick to m31s next time.
  • As a fellow string player (cello here) I would recommend implanting in a finger of your right hand.
  • I'm really interested to hear what the undercoat is. Nickle was always the general go to and I hated that cause so many people react to it and it's just not biofriendly at all.

    And nickle plus iodine gas makes nickle diiodide. There could have been not enough surface area tho....
  • Powdered nickel with liquid iodine. It doesn't even discolor the surface of a control nickel mag in a reasonable time unfortunately. Dude, check out the dimethylglyoxime. Instant results.
  • Ah that makes sense. Gas would work still I think, but waay slower than I figured. . I'll look into the dimethylglyoxime. Looking forward to your write up, you're always so thorough.
  • @niky45 since you appear to be in the mood of hurting yourself a lot I won't attempt to beat some scientific sense into you. For material tests I would recommend against fingertips. Instead use some area that's not quite as important in case you run into serious problems and have to cut away a few cm² of skin. So maybe the arm or somewhere around the leg. No magnetic sensation to expect from there but ripping off 4cm² of skin from your legs is no big deal (you'll hardly notice the loss after a few month)
  • Well, I didn't mean to suggest that you go ahead with implanting something coated in nail polish. I was suggesting that you do the research on it and say why you think it is or isn't ok.
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