New to the forum and have a question about sourcing a TiN magnet

edited September 2015 in Magnets
Hello, I am new around and have been doing my research into implanting a magnet. I had one failed attempt, after doing a small amount of research I stupidly bought some magnets that I thought were tiny (had nothing really to compare it to) which were 6mm dia x 3mm thick gold plated. Anyway, I was smart enough to stop before I started increasing the size of the pouch. 

I live in the UK, and so far I have only been able to find 1 place that sells TiN coated magnets in the size I need however their postage costs are about 6 times the price of the magnet, and most of the other custom magnet places ive found to make a gold AND parylene coated magnet, are also in america. Dangerousthings m31 is out of sale until further notice, so I am wondering if someone may have a recommendation for where to buy magnets until dangerous things put the m31 back up? 

Otherwise I already have everything I need for the implantation procedure,
isopropyl to sterilise,
thin needle (which I bent to a slight curve to help with the sutures), 
superglue (haven't made my mind up yet but I might do superglue and maybe 1 suture),
monofilament nylon fishing line for the sutures (Ive seen people suggest using cotton thread but I dont like that idea),
a pair of scissors to help open the pouch (small curved blunt edge scissors)
for pain management, in my naive first attempt, simply ice was sufficient (and I forgot a tourniquet), plus getting lidocaine in this country is a complete nightmare, all I can get is the topical skin cream, i think personally ice will work better, though with ice I have to work quicker.
for anti-septic cream for aftercare I am going to grab that when I next go shopping, I don't feel like I need it though as I have never ever used or needed anti septic or disinfectant before but it will be handy to have anyway.

Anyway, thanks for any info/opinions/help.



  • I just recently (a few days ago in fact) had my m31 arrive from dangerous things, contact Amal and i'm sure you can put in a back order for when they're back in stock. 

    As for your other questions: iso alcohol is not sufficient to safely sterilise, you'll want to add some chlorhexidine or similar and as for superglue, if it's not medical grade stuff i'd avoid using it.

    What I did was to use "rock tips" - a product designed for toughening finger tips for playing guitar and other stringed instruments - this is cheap and still medical grade and comes with a handy brush applicator. I've used standard cheap superglue in the past for sticking things to myself and there's a massive difference in skin irritation when you use the wrong kind - you do NOT want the cheap kind in a wound.

    As for lidocaine, i'm also in the UK and found that I could import it from dangerous things just fine:

    Do read up on the proper procedure before using it though, and assume you're a complete idiot who needs more education before injecting yourself with anything.

    Don't neglect the antiseptic or aftercare in general - at least grab some germolene or similar and some sterile saline.
  • I was holding off on the pain management kit as so far I have been fine with just ice, if it was cheap and easy to get lidocaine, then I would give it a test to see how effective it is on me, and if effective then I would've bought the kit along with the m31. 

    Just looked into rock tips and it looks interesting. May grab some and give it a go. 

    I was told that iso is sufficient to sterilise, however the implements etc would need to soak for a minimum of 6-10 mins then would stay sterile for a short time? 
    How hard is clorahexidine to get in the UK? There are so many prohibited things that aren't allowed in the post anymore and *must* be couriered.

    I have done as much researching as I can find articles at the moment. Read ALOT of the stuff here, and done what research I can on understanding properly the anatomy of the human fingers/hand and what NOT to accidentally damage!! hahaa
  • Who told you that iso isn't good enough? Iso is fine for this, just use 70+, 95 is better but evaporates quickly so cap the thing. Just let the magnet sit in a tube of solution for 10 minutes. After that everything is dead as it's gonna get. Also the ones from dangerous things (if you can get one) comes with a vial of chlorhex which you can mix into the iso bath if you'd like. That's all i've ever used and that's standard for most body mod stuff and lab work. Although in lab we use ethanol rather than iso.
  • I honestly think the m31 are out of stock because of september grindfest.
    Cassox has a good number of RFID's and m31's for it. You shouldn't have to wait all too long (month or so max) before Amal has them back up on Dangerous things!
  • Do not hold off on the pain management.  There is no legitimate reason to avoid using proper care and technique to work on yourself.
  • edited September 2015
    Unfortunately, the situation with the m31s is a little more complex than just stock being procured for Grindfest.  I talked to Amal via email a few days back regarding the m36's status.  What he told me is this (and I quote):

    "Thanks for checking in. We are in full fledged "square one" mode now. We had a good thing going with our manufacturer but something changed there and every magnet we get back from them is shit now. Every. Single. One. I've flown out
    to explain things to them and what it is we need and still I am getting
    zero usable magnets. So, I'm back to square one looking for a new
    manufacturer. The problem has extended to m31s as well now and we've had
    to stop selling those also.

    This is one of my top priorities. I will fulfill orders placed for m36s with
    quality magnets, but I'm at a loss as to when that might be possible."

    So, there you have.  It could be awhile before new stock of m31s becomes available.  Amal's a man of his word, so no worries on the eventual availability of the m36s (and, presumably, m31s).  I've not cancelled my order for m36s, but I have sourced some gold-plated cylinders (custom manufacturing run because the size I wanted didn't present itself after a couple days of googling) that I'm going to have rhodium-plated locally (rhodium being one of Cassox's suggestions).  Once I have the gold-plated magnets, I'll likely be offering them up here on the forum for a decent price (minus the rhodium plating).  I had to buy a BUNCH of them to get the manufacturing run done and I will have tons of excess.  Mainly, I wanted to try rhodium "for science", but I know some people have implanted just gold-plated with success.  Rhodium plating is a bit pricey, but nearly any jewelry shop that does repair work could do it for you.

    Regarding iso vs. chlorhexidine, I used iso for my first implants then switched to chlorhex for the later ones.  I suspect in most cases, iso would be fine.

    And as to pain management, yeah, don't skimp there.  The last thing you want to do is pass out or suddenly jerk your hand from pain while you've got a scalpel or needle in there.  Some people don't use it, but that's just stupid, really.  (I feel comfortable calling others stupid for that because I'm one of those stupid people; if I can call myself that, I can call others that, too.)
  • Pain management is an absolute necessity for some people (myself included - i'm a wimp when it comes to pain) and a "nice to have" for others.

    Before deciding, you could test by using a sterile scalpel to cut yourself on the other hand and seeing how you handle the pain - obviously you need to take the same care to prevent infection, but it'll give you an idea before you end up screwing up an actual implant procedure.
  • Thanks for the help and advice everyone! :) I spoke to amal about the m31's. Im going to try to be patient but if I cave I will likely get a gold + parylene magnet. I've contacted a few manufacturers and resellers over the last few days and it's pretty much the same answer. (For TiN AND Gold + Parylene). It would have to be a custom request with a minimum order of 100 and a lead time of 5-8 weeks. 

    I might add only one has replied saying they are able to do Titanium Nitride. 

    For pain management, I have already tried using just ice. I think the procedure will take longer with ice as I had to keep returning my finger to the ice every 10-20 seconds, but certainly no pain if I leave my finger on ice for 2-3 minutes before starting (this time I won't forget the tourniquet!!). 

    I'm intrigued about a rhodium coating because i've done a lot of looking on "in vivo" materials and I haven't seen rhodium as a suggestion.. Also Amal said to me that they are currently looking into a "Only TItanium" coating. 

  • I dunno why we even discuss pain managment as an option. Unless you have a medical reason to not use it I can't think of any reason to not use it. Doing this shit right is hard enough with pain managment. Don't be a fool and not use it. 

    As to TiN coatings. I'm working as hard as I can to get my setup working so people can start getting things coated. My reactor blew up this week and is refusing to cooperate so i'm still a month out but once i've got it sorted, if amal can't get magnets out, I may be able to help. But that's a good month away at least since trouble shooting something like this is a pain (see, it has a tendency to explode, er sorry, implode). So patience is your best bet.

    Rhodium is expensive if memory serves and just as difficult to get onto your magnets as TiN. A plain titanium coat is slightly easier but not by much. Zirconium is also good and I've been looking into that as well, but it's got the same coating issues as the other metals. 
  • I'm new to the forums, but not new to biohacking. 

    I hope Amal is able to get a good source, I was looking forward to buying some m36s.
  • Chironex, I see pain management as an option because A. There is extra risk involved when injecting Lidocaine B. Many (but by no means statistically significant) people find that the injection hurts incredibly. and C. When I made an attempt last I found that ice managed to take away ALL sensation of the skin, however if I cut TOO deep then it hurt... In my mind I see that as a good thing. A good indicator that your cutting where you shouldn't... All said and done, I would still choose to at least give lidocaine a go. Welcome Jacksonix, think it's not going to be a fast process from what I gather, but amal did set up a mailing list to be notified when they are in stock again
  • edited September 2015
    I find your B a bit odd - the injection does hurt at first, but afterwards there's no more pain and the actual cutting with a scalpel is always going to be more painful than a tiny needle.
  • No, there isn't really a risk unless you do it poorly and if you manage to screw that up you shouldn't really be operating in the first place. To your B i say, Aw muffin, did you get a boo boo while you're OPERATING ON YOURSELF? That's not an inidcator of shit, that's an indicator that you didn't use anesthetic.....while you're operating on yourself. I've dug a magnet out without anesthetic and it was painful like no tomorrow. and that is a much more shallow incision that putting the thing in there. That's a poor excuse for going against protocol. If you were allergic then it would make sense but to say that a quick injection of lido hurts more than the surgery is just stupid. Sorry to be brash but there's no reason to use ice anymore. Lido is easily sourced and not expensive. you don't even need to use the nerve block. Just use local and then only the first prick hurts for all of 3 seconds. Have you ever had stitches? the doctor doesn't rub you down with lido cream before sticking you with the needle. He/she tells you to suck it up for a few seconds so they can operate without you squirming. Without lido, you will feel pain. You did just admit that certain spots hurt. And no matter how good your nerves of steel may be, it will slow you down or make you sloppy. This is minor surgery but surgery non the less and should be respected. Ever wonder why there are so many rejections? It's cause people don't follow protocol. 

    Tl:dr use lido, ice is not a valid technique anymore and suck it up a needle prick hurts less than the surgery.
  • I can personally tell you from some of my experiments with electrodes that break the skin, Ice isn't effective or wise on its own. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that it's dangerous if you're icing after you've put a tourniquet on. I have a loathing of needles that borders on phobic, and I would rather use lido than ice... If the pain of a single prick is that bad, just buy some topical lido cream to go along with your injection (But mind your dosing). Use the topical before you do your local. The bill from the emergency room for repairing the trauma to your finger when you involuntarily twitch with a scalpel in there is going to be much higher than the $40 you spend on lido. 

    In regard to the "extra risk" introduced with using lidocaine. That's not even a valid reason. The risk posed by ice is just as high, if not higher. Do you even want to know what frostbite will do to your extremities? Other than the whole gangrene thing, it'll slow healing and increase infection risk. Cold causes blood vessels to constrict, which means less blood reaches the implant site, which means the immune system is less effective. 

    Allergies are the only legitimate reason (unless you are full on phobic) for not using a lidocaine injection.
  • I'm not worried about the injection nor the pain. With Lido hard to source, at least from everywhere I have looked so far (Apart from dangerous things) I would (have) preferred to use ice. I don't think it is effective though but I do wish it was. The risks involved with ice aren't in the ballpark (in my own mind) as the risks of accidentally injecting lidocaine into the blood stream but that is opinion. 

    I have had stitches before. On my forearm. The local wore off after 2 of 8 stitches. 

    When I finally get the M31 I will use Lido, however I believe that I had (in my last attempt) made a pouch large enough for the m31 with no tourniquet and just ice. Just because it's stupid doesn't mean its any more or less stupid than putting a foreign object inside your body.
  • your argument is pretty much reductio ad absurdum. saying there is a risk of injecting into your bloodstream and putting it up against the use of ice is insane. All this boils down to as i've said, if you follow procedure, you won't get hurt. If you aspirate before injection AS IS PROTOCOL you're essentially at no risk of injecting into your blood stream. That's the point of aspirating. Lido can be found on ebay fairly easily usually in trauma kits. the risks of ice go deeper than just frost bit and tissue damage. if you are damaging the tissue, tissue you're trying to stick a foreign body in, it will very likely reject or at least have a harder time healing. Also the ice water isn't sterile which is a major source of contamination in your workspace. Which, you guessed it, could mean rejection. 

    if your lido wore off that fast you should've just told the doc and he should've given you more. I'd hate to get stiched raw. 

    Wait. no tourneqet....and ice. This is why we can't have nice things. We can't help you if you're gonna ignore protocol entierly. All of these things have a purpose. Putting a foreign object in your body is far from stupid. everything has been thought out and considered and improved over years. The object has special coatings to make it safe. The procedure is such that it is as painless and easy as possible. Eventually we'll start adding special sealants and growth factors and on and on and on. My point is that this isn't something your gut is gonna give you an appropriate feeling on. Follow protocol or risk getting hurt. That's your call.
  • To be fair, I myself neglected the tourniquet with my m31 procedure - that said, it was a stupid mistake and I had to put up with way more bleeding than should have happened because of it but it wasn't a massive problem.

    On the other hand, excess bleeding could of course BECOME a big problem if you screw it up and don't have the right tools on hand to manage it.
  • I just looked at trauma kits on ebay, up to $110 inc shipping, and out of ALL of them, the only thing I find remotely close and that was in a trauma kit for $60 not inc international postage and that was Medicaine Sting & Bite Ampules 0.02ml (Sterile, Benzocaine 20%, Menthol 1%

    I have yet to find Lidocaine in an injectable form anywhere on ebay, in fact anywhere on mainstream shopping sites inc Amazon which I can usually find things that might be usually be legal to buy in this country. 

    Also Chironex, it's not about ignoring protocol. Any surgeon will tell you there are always risks involved with surgery no matter how closely they stick to protocol. What I am saying is a "risk" is just that, a possibility, maybe you aspirate then accidently move the needle slightly. Not saying it will happen but I am saying it *can* happen. When I look at something that involves risk, the risk isn't always in context of protocol... Just because there is a process in place to minimise or eliminate a risk, doesn't mean that all possibility of said risk is ended by pure virtue of having a set of protocols in place. Surgeons have protocols to follow, yet still occasionally someone ends up finding a pair of surgical scissors left inside their gut!! There is protocol there, they are mount to count every implement before and after surgery, and despite there being a protocol in place, it still doesn't mean it won't happen. Yes you could argue that said surgeon didn't follow protocol, but what if the protocol WAS followed and it was a simple miscount? What if the surgeon aspirated a needle then accidentally moved it by a small amount that it pierced a vein and allowed a substance to enter directly into the blood stream? It still CAN happen despite protocol, at least that I how I think of the risk - reward paradigm. Same goes for risk - reward of ice. Yes it CAN cause frostbite, in my mind, frostbite is easier to treat than cardiac arrest!!! and fyi after some research on the risks of lidocaine as a local anaesthetic, one website I will quote "
    To avoid intravascular injection, aspiration should be performed before the local anesthetic solution is injected. The needle must be repositioned until no return of blood can be elicited by aspiration. Note, however, that the absence of blood in the syringe does not guarantee that intravascular injection has been avoided." 
  • Sorry forgot to add, that I am happy to use Lidocaine for the purposes of what I need, however I would (and did) prefer to explore to use of a less risky (in my mind) form of pain management first to eliminate the risks involved entirely. 

    Just because a method is tried and tested still doesn't mean that method is correct in 100% of cases :) But thank you for your advice and info :)
  • If you think a lidocaine inject is risky, you really need to reconsider biohacking as a hobby.

    We have told you, the benefits of lido are not only the pain reduction. It reduces trauma to the implant site, improves healing rate and will assist in the plasticity of the skin as compared to ice.

    You're putting several carts before a horse here, and if you choose to use a rusty knife and an icicle to get a magnet under your skin, you will reject.
  • You know.. There has been a kind of shift since the earlier days of the forum. Before people took tons of pride in having done their own magnets. It was like an extra merit badge to have done it with ice. To me, this stuff is half ceremony and half protocol. I mean, I make people do like 5 minute surgical hand scrubs prior to a very minor procedure akin to an ear piercing. I've seen mds use alcohol foam at the bedside before drilling into someones skull to alleviate pressure. I agree there probably is a best way. If not we can discuss better ways... but I'm not sure about a right way when dealing with the people in this community. I mean people shove hooks and wires and shit in their flesh for fun. The motivations arent always seeking the most efficacious means to do this.
  • Well I'd rather not cultivate a 'How tough are ye?' mentality, that isn't conducive to results or appearances. From what I gather we're looking to promote the knowledge and improve practices, as well as push the envelope on what can be done by hobbyists.

    Half of the stigma with this stuff is that it looks painful anyways. ('How often do you get a 'That must've really hurt!')
  • I'd second that. at this point we have more of an epidemic of people doing this poorly and it's getting annoying. I'd rather hammer proper procedure down peoples throats if it means less "my magnet rejected what did i do wrong" threads. Also if you're having a hard time finding lido, then go with the pain management kit from dangerous things. I'm looking into a better solution but until then it's still a great option. And ya if you think that' risk you're really in the wrong hobby.
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