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A few new projects
Well SFM has a lot going on but i have a few pet projects Im going to be working through the AugLim blog. Any collab is welcome. First off one of my current fascinations is with Lithium Salts. A large number of studies have shown neuroprotective, genic and neuroplastic effects in certain regions. Also a three percent increase in grey matter in as little as 4 weeks of therepeutic dosing. The question of course is what aspect to monitor and how.. anyone have any
Ideas on how to test this?
Vasoactive Intestinal Polypeptide... Some impressive circadian rythm modifying aspects.
glutathione iv
Finally growth factors like ngf.
Comments
Displaying comments 1 - 30 of 31
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What dose are we talking about? Impossible to reach through eating without a doubt.
It sounds interesting, these are the only things I can find. Except for science looking pages, and expensive.
- Lithium Aspartate
- Lithium Orotate
- Lithium Chloratum
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Exactly. Each are a lithium source. There is some difference in how easily each can be maintained at a so called therapeutic level. I believe rotate can cause big fluctuations. High serum levels are toxic to the kidneys. One thing that's crucial is getting lithium labs drawn.
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Well, let's not forget Lithium Carbonate. I've had a fair amount of experience with that. Orotate seems to be much easier to get tho.Lithium Chloride is toxic even in low levels, as far as I know.We would need to do a thyroid test before and during as well, right?So, how do we measure "grey matter increase"?
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I don't think we could. It was originally measured via mri. Not affordable. Perhaps behavioral or memory measures?
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In terms of thyroid it would depend on the length of study time. Some studies have found the thyrotoxicity to be far more common when the person also had iodine deficiency. Usually the onset is more than a year, chronic lithium use
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If aspartic acid stimulates NMDA receptors, this is a better choice than the others?
The others seem to be toxic, but not a lot of literature apparently about lithium aspartate.What is meant by serum levels?
I'm going to give it a go, 5mg daily as per supplements instructions.
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Well, before jumping in I think designing a protocol and format is important. Why are you taking it? Why age you taking it the way you are? How do we test if what you expect is occurring? Safety? What are the controlled and uncontrolled variables? Etc.
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Basically, we need to make it mean something.
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Yeah, if you just pop a bunch of pills, how are we going to tell if it worked or not?
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It's a doozy.
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Well, you can still get some control data (few weeks of memory tests, dual-n-back, journal) Then a few weeks of dose data with the same.Get this from anyone participating. Normalize your test data against your control... from that point you can at least begin to say if it's worth looking into for the average person... at least that way it is less subjective...
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I've come across a few articles docomenting these studies recently and have considered experimenting with Lithium Carbonate. From what I've read the tests were largely (if not all, based on what I've read so far) conducted on bipolar patients. Having bipolar disorder myself I see potential gains from this if only therapeutic in nature), but I question whether similar results, with regard to neuroprotective/neurogenic effects, would be found in those who do not suffer from bipolar disorder. Many of the documentation I've read claims (somewhat vaguely) that the neurogenic effect was most notable in the prefrontal cortex while some claim the effects were localized to areas dealing with emotional response. Regardless, I would love to be a part of this. I have a supply of Lithium Carbonate on the way. Perhaps various Lithium salts could (asuming a large enough group of people take part) be compared regarding their effects.
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But like glims said, I think on the expected scale individualized testing (personal "control," personal results over regular intervals) would be the easiest course of action. If standardization of the testing is at all possible, then I see the only drawback being medical testing (serum levels, etc.). This does cross close to clinical testing territory, and while many of these chemicals can be obtained in high purity for laboratory purposes they are considered prescription-only so discretion is advised.
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Speaking of high-purity lab-grade chemicals, is it ever a good idea to use high-purity lab-grade chemicals for medical purposes(e.g. Lab grade benzocaine)?
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as opposed to? the lower grade stuff they put in people and animals? As long as you have your percentages and ratios correct, you should not have issues. Maybe i'm not understanding the question here...
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As opposed to USP-grade pharmaceuticals.
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High purity lab materials are called reagents. These are of a better quality that usp. Generally, if you are not using it to clean the tools in the lab, the materials used are better than what you put in people. Look for the word "reagent" or (if you are lucky) ACS.
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Well, I found a few jars of reagent-grade Benzocaine and Benzocaine HCL on amazon. 25 grams is the smallest size, I believe. It was fairly cheap compared to what I was expecting. I'll see if I can find any of the lithium compounds for this project so a group buy could possibly be organized. In terms of testing, however, I think I'll opt out, since my family does have a history of thyroid issues. No sense in poking that hornets nest unless it's absolutely necessary.
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Be veeery careful with getting stuff on amazon that says reagent grade. Follow it back to the supplier. Claims are sometimes made...
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If a group buy is being considered we need to be sure of the quality. Either a more reputable source should be found or analytical testing should be done. Both would be preferable. These are potentially dangerous chemicals, being used in an experimental context. My supply was through eBay but I have access to an AES in the lab, so like anything else purchased through less reputable sites analytical testing will be done first before it goes anywhere near me.
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Yeah, if i'm putting "lab grade chemicals" in my body, they are probably coming from sigma or something. Unlike magnets, betting a bulk buy from alibaba or some chinese vendor can really mess you up if you get something that isn't quite right.
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Sigma has their ACS reagent grade LiCO3 at around 60 bucks per 100 grams. If we intend to run this over a 4 week period then that comes to about 12 bucks per person for a 4 week supply at low/average therapeutic daily dosage. Not at all unreasonable.
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There are a few other options that are even less expensive but still reputable (Santa Cruz, Frontier, etc).Alright! Experimental design! I figure we need a month of control data and then a month of dose. If we setup a nice easy every other day 10 min task or test, everyone should be able to do that right? Ideas?
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I'd be up for providing control data. And we're looking for general cognitive enhancement? Memory? Processing Rate? What we're looking for will determine the time spent on the task. I think it would also be wise to do some research on how long dosing must occur before results are seen.
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As Cassox mentioned above, a 3% increase in grey matter was seen after 4 weeks. This 4 week time frame is consistent across a few different studies. I still think it's unclear whether the increase was seen throughout the prefrontal cortex or more localized to areas dedicated to specific functions such as emotional response. My knowledge of the brain's anatomy is lacking so I don't feel comfortable making any guesses or assumptions. I do feel, however, that based on the claim by at least one study regarding localized neurogenesis in areas dealing with emotional response that related testing should be included supplemental to the cognitive testing. A log of some sort detailing individuals' mood, reactions to stimuli, etc. could be useful.
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Ok, so I hate to be "that guy", but I've not been able to find research that supports the idea that lithium salts have neuroprotective effects that lead to cognitive improvement in healthy individuals. If you can post links to some articles supporting this I'd love to get on board, the idea of being able to take a drug to increase my brain size excites me. That being said, here were a couple articles I found and some excerpts I thought were significant."Although few studies have examined the effects of lithium and valproate outside of clinical populations, these two drugs cause a range of cognitive impairments in healthy subjects.Deficits on the WAIS digit symbol subtest and TrailsA test (Judd, 1979) as well as deficits in semantic processing, alertness, recall and memory have all been shown in lithium-treated healthy volunteers" - Discussion section of Differential effects of chronic lithium and valproate on brainactivation in healthy volunteersThis study found a maximum of 2.56% increase in grey matter, but the effect was only mentioned in individuals with Bipolar disorder, couldn't find the data for healthy volunteers."To summarize, this longitudinal imaging study of a medication-free BD cohort, naive to mood-stabilizing or antipsychotic medications, suggests that lithium treatment in patients with BD induce sustained increases in GM volume and that this effect may mediate the long-term efficacy of lithium." - Discussion section of Lithium-Induced Gray Matter Volume Increase As a Neural Correlate of Treatment Response in Bipolar Disorder: A Longitudinal Brain Imaging Study
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BoopHooooowever. We should consider that increase in matter does not mean increase in smarts. These rats could just be dumb.
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Thanks for posting! So it appears from the first article that the neuroprotective effects assumed to have occurred were only present in individuals with bipolar disorder, I think we need to search more specifically for studies that tested this on healthy volunteers.
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I think we should also consider the possiblity that sudden new grey matter growth may not necessarily be a "good thing". At the very least it seems like it might cause debilitating headaches, at the worst it could conceivably cause seizures, stroke, and death.
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Well, I edited that but the web interface is spastic. I have no evidence, but it seems like arbitrarily increasing the volume of grey matter might lead to complications. I'd be wary of messing with it unless a wealth of solid info is available, the brain is way more complex and delicate than shoving a sliver of metal under your skin.
Displaying comments 1 - 30 of 31