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Update on new magnet design
Ok, so I definitely owe you guys an update. I've been working with a number of people to develop a new magnet implant that's significantly better than what people are implanting now. It's more than simply a better coating. We've been working to determine the optimal shape, and comparing axial and diametric magnetization effects. I've also hinted at the application of other layer to focus the magnetic field. There are still a number of hurdles that this project has yet to hop, so I'll focus on what's probably the most important aspect: coatings.
I still have my first magnet implant. It's a V&P, parylene coated. It's held up surprisingly well. It's not an N52 however and doesn't compare. I figured that there had to be better. I ordered N52s from SMM. The parylene is simple too thin and fragile. This lead to my first attempt at a new coating: Dental resin. As I've said before no one has actually ever reported a rejection to me. Another grinder who coated his own reported problems however which got me doing more research. Dental resin isn't optimal because A) there is no research indicating or approving it for implantation, much less long term implantation, and B) it's a porous material which is begging to be colonized. So I began looking at other plastic/resin/epoxy solutions.
I tried... Atom Adhesives, Masterbond, Epotek. I tried different versions from different companies, and yet each type really left something to be desired. It was also all very difficult to work with. I built molds and baked and cured and ground. Not a single one really impressed me.
Ok, so this is where I broke from my initial "Grinder Economics" vision. What I've really always wanted to maintain is essentially an educational type of atmosphere. Sure, I want to sell you stuff. I want your money so I can do cool things... but I don't want to rip you off. - (Begin Rant) I seriously take issue with advertising. The point of it is to make money, not explain why a service or product is better. I totally want what I do to be something you can replicate yourself. The point of selling resin coated magnets wasn't because you can't do it yourself. No, I explained exactly how to do it. But, since I already have everything including experience making them I can save you the difficulty and perhaps even money. I wish I could stay with this model, but unfortunately we really do need a better method than glue sticks on refrigerator magnets.
So on to other methods involving other people:
The most obvious... more Parylene. Why not do multiple depositions? Well, the vapor depostion of parylene can only apply so much per run and because it's essentially a surface meant to prevent crud from adhering, multiple deposition runs don't really add to the mechanical strength to the degree I expected.
I could list about 4 other things I attempted, but I'll cut to the chase as to where I'm at:
Metals. There are a couple of metal options that are very, very promising. I'm rather found of Titanium Nitride. Titanium Nitride is commonly used in orthopedic implants and screws. It's a gold color... the same golden tips you see on drill bits. The problem with TiN is the temperature. It's applied via physical vapor deposition - sputtering. Basically they shoot it through a plasma arc and it sticks to the magnets. The temperature is around 500C. I had samples made and tested - perfect. No cytotoxicity. The coating was thin around one edge, but this was expected and wouldn't occur in the final product. The big big problem though? Sintering temperature and unrecoverable losses. I swear I've gotten so many different numbers regarding the curie temperature of neodymium. No matter what, if you get these magnets hot they lose strength But they can be remagnetized. Too hot though, and there are physical changes that occur in the neodymium that result in an unrecoverable loss - can't remagnetize it. Now, I kid you not... one source gave me the unrecoverable temperatures as starting near 950 - 1000C. Another reported to me that this is incorrect and that the curie of N52 was closer to 350C. The literature seems to hover right around this number. So, having a TiN applied may result in a partial loss of magnetism. I was told that this wouldn't be much. The example given was the if a magnet was originally 1000 gauss, after remagnetization it may be only 950 gauss. To put that in perspective, its a difference that we as humans aren't able to detect. I'm still not entirely happy with this though. I've been working with another person who uses a CVD method which can be performed at cooler temperatures. This is a work in progress.
Another option, and one that I had long ago ruled out but have recently reconsidered is PTFE. (Teflon). PTFE has that same temperature issue... under normal circumstances. It's also thick and bulky. I've found a few biomedical coating specialist that use a PVD system with PTFE and they can do it under acceptable temperature ranges and in an acceptably thin layer. I'm actually considering this route heavily right now. It doesn't have the beauty of titanium. I mean titanium is pretty and simple, BUT PTFE can be applied conformationally and account for some of the modified shapes and other options I'm experimenting with. It's pretty cool stuff.
I have a few other methods I'm considering - for example cold spray deposition is this really cool new tech that shoots particles at supersonic speeds at room temperature to form a coating. 316 surgical steel can be applied this way... but I haven't been able to find someone actually using the process. My biggest restriction so far has been of course funding. I've been working with Amal from Dangerous Things as of course the guys from SFM, but these processes are rather costly when your not entirely sure that the end product will work. I'm going to keep working on this and an tentatively planning on having a new magnet product out by August. Hopefully sooner.
I still have my first magnet implant. It's a V&P, parylene coated. It's held up surprisingly well. It's not an N52 however and doesn't compare. I figured that there had to be better. I ordered N52s from SMM. The parylene is simple too thin and fragile. This lead to my first attempt at a new coating: Dental resin. As I've said before no one has actually ever reported a rejection to me. Another grinder who coated his own reported problems however which got me doing more research. Dental resin isn't optimal because A) there is no research indicating or approving it for implantation, much less long term implantation, and B) it's a porous material which is begging to be colonized. So I began looking at other plastic/resin/epoxy solutions.
I tried... Atom Adhesives, Masterbond, Epotek. I tried different versions from different companies, and yet each type really left something to be desired. It was also all very difficult to work with. I built molds and baked and cured and ground. Not a single one really impressed me.
Ok, so this is where I broke from my initial "Grinder Economics" vision. What I've really always wanted to maintain is essentially an educational type of atmosphere. Sure, I want to sell you stuff. I want your money so I can do cool things... but I don't want to rip you off. - (Begin Rant) I seriously take issue with advertising. The point of it is to make money, not explain why a service or product is better. I totally want what I do to be something you can replicate yourself. The point of selling resin coated magnets wasn't because you can't do it yourself. No, I explained exactly how to do it. But, since I already have everything including experience making them I can save you the difficulty and perhaps even money. I wish I could stay with this model, but unfortunately we really do need a better method than glue sticks on refrigerator magnets.
So on to other methods involving other people:
The most obvious... more Parylene. Why not do multiple depositions? Well, the vapor depostion of parylene can only apply so much per run and because it's essentially a surface meant to prevent crud from adhering, multiple deposition runs don't really add to the mechanical strength to the degree I expected.
I could list about 4 other things I attempted, but I'll cut to the chase as to where I'm at:
Metals. There are a couple of metal options that are very, very promising. I'm rather found of Titanium Nitride. Titanium Nitride is commonly used in orthopedic implants and screws. It's a gold color... the same golden tips you see on drill bits. The problem with TiN is the temperature. It's applied via physical vapor deposition - sputtering. Basically they shoot it through a plasma arc and it sticks to the magnets. The temperature is around 500C. I had samples made and tested - perfect. No cytotoxicity. The coating was thin around one edge, but this was expected and wouldn't occur in the final product. The big big problem though? Sintering temperature and unrecoverable losses. I swear I've gotten so many different numbers regarding the curie temperature of neodymium. No matter what, if you get these magnets hot they lose strength But they can be remagnetized. Too hot though, and there are physical changes that occur in the neodymium that result in an unrecoverable loss - can't remagnetize it. Now, I kid you not... one source gave me the unrecoverable temperatures as starting near 950 - 1000C. Another reported to me that this is incorrect and that the curie of N52 was closer to 350C. The literature seems to hover right around this number. So, having a TiN applied may result in a partial loss of magnetism. I was told that this wouldn't be much. The example given was the if a magnet was originally 1000 gauss, after remagnetization it may be only 950 gauss. To put that in perspective, its a difference that we as humans aren't able to detect. I'm still not entirely happy with this though. I've been working with another person who uses a CVD method which can be performed at cooler temperatures. This is a work in progress.
Another option, and one that I had long ago ruled out but have recently reconsidered is PTFE. (Teflon). PTFE has that same temperature issue... under normal circumstances. It's also thick and bulky. I've found a few biomedical coating specialist that use a PVD system with PTFE and they can do it under acceptable temperature ranges and in an acceptably thin layer. I'm actually considering this route heavily right now. It doesn't have the beauty of titanium. I mean titanium is pretty and simple, BUT PTFE can be applied conformationally and account for some of the modified shapes and other options I'm experimenting with. It's pretty cool stuff.
I have a few other methods I'm considering - for example cold spray deposition is this really cool new tech that shoots particles at supersonic speeds at room temperature to form a coating. 316 surgical steel can be applied this way... but I haven't been able to find someone actually using the process. My biggest restriction so far has been of course funding. I've been working with Amal from Dangerous Things as of course the guys from SFM, but these processes are rather costly when your not entirely sure that the end product will work. I'm going to keep working on this and an tentatively planning on having a new magnet product out by August. Hopefully sooner.
Comments
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@Cassox during my research of materials I also found FEP (fluorinated ethylene propylene) to be an interesting material to investigate. It's quite like PTFE in terms of bio-inertness but it has a lower melting point (260 °C) and can be processed like a regular thermoplast. So you can injection mold and weld it. FEP is also suited for coatings, those are used in the food industry. Or have you tested FEP already and found it to be unsuited?
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The issue I've had with parylene is the mechanical strength. It's approved for use as a coating for implants, but pacemakers don't suffer the repetitive stress of a typing finger, much less rock climbing etc. Parylene is weak and can be scraped off a magnet with your fingernail. That's why I'm not into it. In terms of FEP.. yeah your totally right. I was really grouping all the fluoroplastic. I've looked into FEP, PTFE PFA ETFE etc. They're pretty similar, and a number of versions of each would suit our purpose. The thing that I'm going for here though is a coating thats been extensively tested for long-term implantation safety etc. And one that I can find a manufacturer for. The material data on FEP looks great, but I haven't found anybody who specifically uses them for implants. Since you point it out, I'll look into FEP further though.
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Whats up ladies and gents. I am new to the site but i have been thrilled since i have stumbled upon it. Cassox your work and dedication to moving this project forward is amazing. Do you have a donation portal of any type? dogecoin, paypal? I would love to be involved in moving this forward. i want to get magnets but currently the prospect of getting a low quality magnet and being unsatisfied later is overbearing. It seems as though it would take quite a bit of time to network the resources that you already have. i feel as though it would be more advantageous for me to join funding to find quality sources for these things. i am super anxious to get one or two in my finger tips so that i can experience this. But like i said i only want the highest quality product because i have no intentions of taking it out.
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We are currently using the SfM paypal account to organize the funds and donations for projects. While there are many projects currently going on (3d printer, night vision, magnets), we take extra care to make sure that the resources for each project are earmarked and kept separate.If you would like to financially contribute to Cassox's work on this project, PayPal toand make a note on what the funds are to be used for.
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Thanks for the update! Definitely looking forward to what you eventually come up with. If you need any virgin beta testers, let me know; but I'll be happy to pay for the quality. ^_^
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@atrocious00 If you want the best ones buy the ones from Haworth, coated on medical silicone grade https://steve-haworth-modified-llc.myshopify.com/products/copy-of-1-1-2-38mm-x-1-4-6mm-hollow-center-heart-1
Im sure those are the best,but if im wrong, can someone point me in the right direction? -
Thankyou for the info on contribution. Roughly how many people do we actively have funding this project. I like to have an idea of where something is at before I start jumping in. Also I have specific intentions for my implants so I want to see more about ideal placement in terms of the magnetic field not only the physical magnet into my body. I am curious if anyone here has experimented with different shape magnets or if it makes much impact being as they are so small. Likewise has anyone documented the effects of placing these anywhere besides fingers? I am curious to see if you were to place them somewhere more defensive bit still a large amount of nervous to pickup vibrations of the implant. I am having a hard time not thinking that the distribution of these in your body would not be unlike having antenna placed throughout it. The more input the more complete the image yiu can make. Kinda like auditory spatial perception, without more than a single point of input you don't have reference points for building your spatial recognition of the electromagnetic landscape around you. I am designing a device for after I get my implants so that I can train (or attempt to train) myself to track objects in space with these inplants. I came to this site because it appears to have some very bright and unique thinking individuals that I can collaborate with on ideas like this.
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Proxy
@Jack_Sylvane that link you provided came to a 404 error which I believe to be the wrong link in that sense. By chance were you referring to this one?Just comparing the sizes on what you posted on your link this one on the page itself looks to be the most similar? -
@Proxy This is the correct link , I dont know what happened to the other onehttps://steve-haworth-modified-llc.myshopify.com/collections/magnets/products/copy-of-1-1-2-38mm-x-1-4-6mm-hollow-center-heart-1
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Proxy
Ahh that makes much more sense. That was the one that I just recently got implanted. Once I start noticing more things then I would be interested to try and compare some baseline between different magnets that people have implanted in the past and having some objective or even subjective reports to compare with other people.Would there even be some way to objectively compare how strongly one person can feel certain things compared to another person who has a magnet as well?
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Haworth explained that there are different types of magnets and depending of those kinds the sensations will change, for example the "magician" magnets is not suitable for feeling electromagnetic fields, also he says that if you implant it on the ring finger you will feel more.
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Proxy
Yes I believe he called them the super something magnet which is basically for show. I got the 52gauss version which would be for the fields.I also believed that he mentioned that during the scarification process nerves grow around on top of the regular nerve that was cut to add towards the feeling.
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I didnt knew the part about scarification, thats a great thing, I have some scarifications , if I just knew that was possible I would have tested with them
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@atrocious00-So @Cassox and I are the only people currently actively throwing money at the new coatings and magnet design. Until it was just mentioned in this thread, we hadn't actually asked anyone for money...@Cassox is also looking into different shapes for magnets and the effects.@thePhackt and @drewbug posted just recently in another thread about alternative magnet placement
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I am more than happy to team up. Thank you for the amazing info. I talked in pm with cassox about a new tek. Pm me with roughly what I would have to out down to match your guys investments
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@Cassox will you still be selling the implant equipment or will that be put on hold until you finalize the new magnet design? In reality I would like to have a couple magnets and patience was never my strongpoint so I'm hoping to put in an SMM magnet if I can still get the equipment and then one of yours when they are finalized. It'd especially be useful for making comparisons if you end up implementing any ideas for increasing strength/effect.
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@Cassox @glims hey guys I am new to the forum, but I signed up to add my little bit of insight. First, I would assume a Curie of 310-320C but that depending on the manufacturing method. Each supplier will have that on their datasheets. Working temp is 60C-ish again depending on the exact product, above this you will get demagnetization based on the demagnetization curve that is on the datasheets which peaks at a 5 to 10% loss till a full loss @ Curie. Any loss below Curie can be remagnetized. Once you go above Curie you would have to compact and sinter again in a magnetic field to align before remagnetizing. During this process the manufacturer can add high temperature coatings TiN being possible and the one we want ideally. Someone could put them out to bid and see what they want for a batch. @Amol may have insight into this after his recent xNt project. I am pretty certain that I could tube seal in medical glass, but not without a void and even if it was under vac or nitrogen I would not be happy with it in case of rupture. Now TiN cold sputtering is possible but a bit ahead of your average grinder, but would work under the working temp.In addition I have some thoughts of direction of magentization and shape. A torpedo magnetized through the long axis would have a more dense magnetic field at each end which would cause higher sensitivity in addition to greater movement through the dipole. I am also curious if it would have greater sensitivity if you took advantage of the ring finger being enervated by both the ulnar and median nerves. I have a friend who is a hand surgeon who I am going to talk to about this. Anyhow, my 2 cents and if there is anything I can help with ask.
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Nice. It parallels a lot of stuff I'm working on. I'm having a large batch of magnets being made up write now. I went against TiN in the end because of the temperature issues. I'm not against remagnetization, but I couldn't find a way to sinter it again after coating. The TiN layer is just too thin to go through the process.
Also, cold deposition... man, I really explored this. There is so much potential but no one seems to really be doing it outside of colleges. I couldn't find anyone. What I ended up going with is "proprietary" at the moment. I'm not trying to be a deusche, but because I'm working with other folks it wouldn't be good to get scooped. If it doesn't pass testing, or once I have some finished product I'll let y'all know the coating. So far, it looks like the ultimate solution.
The shape issue - this is where a lot of improvement can be made. Your right that a torpedo shape would work well, particularly because it would deform tissue and press on the surrounding mechanoreceptors more than a disc through axis would. In fact, the shape I'm eventually going to push for is more of an oblong concave surface. I have some technical drawing I worked with an engineer to make that shows the optimal field line shaping stuff... but having shapes like I'm describing provides a surface with "nooks and crannies" which facilitate adhesion and fouling. It's all a work in progress. I'm totally down to discuss these things.
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Good deal. If you need any help I am in. I am gonna pursue sputtering because I need a rig to do some thin film stuff anyhow. You may try a Haddock array if you are looking for interest fields.
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@Cassox I'd be really interested in seeing your research or designs for new magnet form factors.
Displaying all 20 comments