The biohack.me forums were originally run on Vanilla and ran from January 2011 to July 2024. They are preserved here as a read-only archive. If you had an account on the forums and are in the archive and wish to have either your posts anonymized or removed entirely, email us and let us know.
While we are no longer running Vanilla, Patreon badges are still being awarded, and shoutout forum posts are being created, because this is done directly in the database via an automated task.
Grindhouse Wetwares Update: HELEDD and Nervous System - Nervous System Communication
Comments
-
I know the basics of the project. But am still fuzzy on some of the details. Can you explain how the array ties in with HELLEDD? I was under the impression that it was a health monitoring device - nothing on the scale of what kevin had done.
-
@meanderingman: No, the HELEDD doesn't have anything to do with the multielectrode array. The array is just something we've been looking at doing recently.
-
I'm assuming that's $4,000 for 1? Because as much as I'd love to be part of this, I don't have that kind of money laying around.
-
hm. 4000 bucks for a multielectrode array.. that's almost tempting. almost. if the circuitry to read and drive that thing would be ready to use,too. having the entire analog frontend manufactured into the backside of the electrode with just a highspeed serial interface would be a lot more convenient. doubt that'll happen unless that lab teams up with texas instruments and licenses their chip design or so.
still. good to know that such a thing would be accessible ,given enough money. should come in handy one day.
-
Yeah, again, retail sucks. I MIGHT pay $50 each for these, but I know they can be made for less. These guys deal with insurance companies so $4k might seem reasonable to them but they have kind of priced themselves out of the DIY market.I'm all about grand theft future at this point. There has to be a way to make these. Is the advantage of the Utah array that it has pins really close together? Is making one of these just a matter of putting platinum onto some fine silicon pins? Any thoughts?@ThomasEgi you once said that the biggest barrier in nerve to machine projects was getting a good enough array. Would quantity make up for quality at all?
-
@DirectorX going for low-quality is not an option. having high quality in quantity is a pretty sweet bonus.
given we "could" buy such an array. the next limiting factor would be the hardware that reads out the electrical signals. we are restricted to 8 lines per frontend-ic. so the implant would grow in size quite fast. my guess would be more than 32 pins per array would be unreasonable.
-
When will the HELEED be ready for production? If I didn't live on the West Coast I would love to be a beta tester for it. If I can come up with the money I'm all in for the multielectrode array. I love Professor Kevin Warwick's work.
-
Sorry for being such a newb, what is the importance of the multielectrode array? I know a little about Kevin Warwick and his pioneering of cybernetics, but why is it used in nervous - nervous system communication?
-
@Butterfly_Knife: The multielectrode array used by Kevin was implanted into the median nerves of his arm. After hooking up a device that could send and receive electrical pulses from the array, he could essentially use it to read from and write to his nervous system. So, for example, he could use it to read signals from a rangefinder (like the Bottlenose, but arguably more effective), or hook his nervous system to the internet to be able to control a robot hand from across the Atlantic Ocean.
He also had his wife, Irena, have a couple of electrodes inserted into her arm, and they did an experiment where, every time Irena moved her hand, Kevin could feel it as a pulse. This is why it would be useful in nervous - nervous communication.
For more information, you can find videos about it by typing "Kevin Warwick Project Cyborg 2.0" into YouTube. For example, there's this video; a bit over-sensationalist, and it gets a few things factually wrong, but it's a decent enough introduction. It's also fun to read some of the comments by people who think that Warwick's working for the Illuminati, or that this stuff is the mark of the beast.
~Ian
-
@Ian I hate when religious nuts say we are members of the Illuminati and devil worshippers because of how popular a lot of those nuts are, such as Alex Jones. I hate Alex Jones and Bill O'Reilly, both are very ignorant and more often than no have their facts very wrong.
-
For the HELEDD's display function, perhaps one could employ a recently-demonstrated stretchable and biocompatible LED substrate :
http://io9.com/5667125/new-ultra+flexible-waterproof-leds-can-be-implanted-under-your-skin
http://www.nature.com/nmat/journal/v9/n11/full/nmat2879.html -
I would volunteer for that procedure.
-
@Ian, thanks, much clearer now, and definitely an area that would have so many practical uses.
-
hmmmm I could afford 4k, but is that just for the array itself? i.e. what kind of hardware would you need to make use of the array?also, from what I see of Kevin Warwick's project, it required quite major surgery to implant the array, i.e. more than a modification artiest could do, how could we get it implanted? cost-wise, I'm willing to go to Thailand or somewhere with few regulations, but I'm somewhat concerned about safety in such locations.
-
I assume that's just the array, you'd still need to develop and manufacture microcircuitry that sends the appropriate signals to the array.The way to go is probably a private surgeon, but that's going to cost.
-
Assuming I can afford a private surgeon, won't most have ethical problems doing something like this?I wonder if such services are available on the Silk Road? I might have to do some searching. although again with the safety concerns.Kevin Warwick's site says his implant was done by "Amjad Shad and Peter Teddy", either of these two would be the ideal surgeon, however, it might be difficult to get them to agree to do it.Amjad Shad seems to currently be working at a private hospital in the UK, and Peter Teddy is an academic in Australia. Maybe Peter Teddy could be persuaded if we could arrange to have it done as an academic study through a university...
-
ETA on this testing to be complete?
-
@AmmonRa I just talked to a medical broker this weekend. He has access to some pretty prestigious doctors if you are willing to travel (India, Colombia). He said they are willing to look at exotic procedures as long as it (and the devices to be used) pass their sniff test. They need lots of supporting documentation, device details, project overview, and medical history, but they are pretty liberal in what they are willing to do.
-
Travel is fine, it's only a couple of thousand dollars, which compared to the 4k for the array, and the probably many thousand for the procedure itself, isn't that much.
Good to know it's available.
So, we have a source for the array, and people (possibly) willing to put it in, the major piece missing is the hardware system to interface with the array. What is needed to build this system?
From Warwick's paper (linked below), they used a subdermal wire which lead away from the array before a transdermal connection to an external gauntlet which held the processing system.
Although 'cool' and useful for short term, I think we all know the problems with a transdermal, for a long term implant, the whole system would need to be subdermal.
Paper before Kevin Warwick got the implant, outlining what they planned:
http://goo.gl/eZFz5
Paper after having the implant, with results:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/cf7nsm66eopp0a9/warwick.pdf
I guess we should wait until the HELEDD is tested in the real world, because if it works, it might be a useful base for such a system, since it has inductive charging, data connection, and limited processing, it could be implanted close to the skin above the array, and used to relay signals.
btw, I recommend reading those papers for those that haven't already.
-
I don't think transdermals should be shied away from as much as they are. I know there's a relatively high chance of rejection, amongst other possible complications, but it's where things will almost assuredly go at some point in time. Being able to plug in a new program or just keep the size of the subdermal part small for larger projects would be really useful.
Copying Warwick's experiments, I don't think everything could easily fit in a small, flexible subdermal implant. For all intents and purposes, you practically need a wearable interface to reprogram on, so the smallest subdermal only implant would be the wireless interface with minimal processing, the MEA, an inductor, and a battery with a gauntlet to provide an inductive charge and talk to the antenna/process the data. A transdermal connection would be significantly smaller.
A quick and easy test for viable transdermals would be to make a connector out of a transdermal and hook it up to a small LED. Plug in a low voltage/current to make sure it works and the connection is reliable. Other than the long term reliability of the connection, you just need to keep track of if it's rejecting. If I had the ability to I'd test it myself, but I personally think a smaller implant with transdermals would heal better over a completely subdermal one, especially involving MEAs.
As it is, even if a transdermal is only temporary within a few years, MEAs currently don't last forever either, and need to be either replaced or moved because the nerve cells start producing glial cells to cover up the electrodes, and overtime can either hurt the nerves, or just won't repsond well enough after some time from being damaged or the glial sheath. There's a reason Warwick took his MEA out after 96 days.
-
@purplep Let me respond to each of the things you said, please don't feel offended when I disagree with you. Correct me when I make mistakes or put forward your own counterarguments, I feel that having a well informed and open discussion is the best way to bring scientific credibility to the biohacking scene."it's where things will almost assuredly go at some point in time" I agree, eventually transdermals will probably be common place, but I think we have a long way to go. Even the medical industry avoids transdermals as much as possible, and they have the equipment and skills to do the best job possible, we in the biohacking community stand little chance of achieving the same level of result as they do.Also, even if we do want to try transdermals, this is probably not the project to try them on, as it says in Warwick's paper, the reason they had the wire run under the skin was to make the transdermal connection be distant from the MEA and nerve, so that if it did get infected, it would be less serious.
"Being able to plug in a new program or just keep the size of the subdermal part small for larger projects would be really useful."Plug in a new program? I'm not really sure what you mean, if you mean software upgrade, then there is no need for a physical connection for that, even the HELEDD allegedly supports wireless reprogramming to some extent. yes, keeping the size of the subdermal part small would be very helpful, but I'm not convinced yet that it's worth it, see my next paragraph for why.It seems this post was too long, I've had to split it in to two parts, please continue reading below. -
"I don't think everything could easily fit in a small, flexible subdermal implant..."Warwick's system needed an external gauntlet to fit all the components, true. But that was 10 years ago, moore's law (I realize it's not accurate, but it provides a good example) shows that the processor would be roughly 25 times smaller today than in 2002, and although not all of the components will be as radically smaller, many will be much smaller then they were. Even if it were not possible to fit all the needed components in a subdermal, they could be put in a removable gauntlet which when worn over the implant would transmit power and/or data. This would allow the subdermal part to be small, while still avoiding a transdermal connection."...MEAs currently don't last forever either, and need to be either replaced or moved because the nerve cells start producing glial cells..." this is sadly true, I really want something that will last at least 5 years, however, there are a couple of things that give me hope, one is that although you make it sound like this is why Warwick had it taken out after 96 days, he didn't mention that in the paper, in fact, he said "...far from rejecting the implant, appeared to accept the implant fully". The other thing is that most of the results relating to the failure of implants due to glial build up seem to be cranial implants, it is not clear to me yet that the same issues will be encountered in peripheral nervous system implants. Even if there are problems they may be different and happen on a different time frame from cranial implants. I think we will learn a lot when/if we go ahead and reproduce Warwick's experiment.As a final note, I'd be keen to get Shaedlaer's input since he/she/it probably has more medical knowledge than the rest of us put together. And anyone from GHWW about the possibility of using a future version of the HELEDD as a base for this system.
-
@AmmonRa I appreciate having more discussion over this (though maybe we need a new thread so we don't totally hijack this one). I feel a lot of people read from Lepht that transdermals don't work well and left it at that. Her body might not accept transdermals readily, but it doesn't mean it should be ignored completely without looking into it first.
"Even the medical industry avoids transdermals as much as possible, and they have the equipment and skills to do the best job possible, we in the biohacking community stand little chance of achieving the same level of result as they do."
A lot of people get transdermal implants from body mod places. We don't need to have a wire sticking out of a body, just something small we can put a plug in similar to the screw on spikes people get. The only way to really see what works is to get varying sized transdermals to see what stays in best/longest.
"even the HELEDD allegedly supports wireless reprogramming to some extent."
When you do totally subdermal implants, for talking to it you have to add a wireless interface, which requires an inductor and battery if it's not already there. Reprogramming would (most likely) need a flash drive, which are small, but the hardware needed will add space. If a small transdermal plug is available, you can take out the need for at least the wireless interface and do a serial connection to a wearable device. Whether or not this is desirable will depend on the project and its requirements.
My main size issue with having a completely subdermal implant is that you can't put everything on a PCB much bigger than a quarter wide and a few inches long at best. Our bodies will change over time, and having too rigid a structure like a PCB would lead to complications if you took a lot of force to the fixture.
-
"you make it sound like this is why Warwick had it taken out after 96 days, he didn't mention that in the paper"
You're right, I jumped the gun and made a conclusion I shouldn't've. Though if he honestly didn't expect there to be any problems, I can't imagine why he'd take it out and take the risk of surgery again. I have metal plates on my jaw from surgery, but I won't get them removed because the risk of leaving them is less than the risk (and cost) of surgery to take them out.
"Even if there are problems they may be different and happen on a different time frame from cranial implants."
I can't seem to find the article, but it seems they have made a prototype MEA out of carbon nanotubes which they expect to have a smaller response from cells because they're magnitudes smaller than current metal electrodes. Once those hit the market we'll have to worry about the longterm viability of the whole implant, but hopefully transdermals are also easier and longer lasting by that point as well.
Overall, I agree the the current version of HELEDD/copying Warwick's experiment is definitely not the way to start off trying transdermals, but it's not something we should just throwaway. That's why I suggested something significantly smaller like a simple LED on a connector plug. It's small enough where it could be tested to see the longterm viability. I think the hardest part would be creating/finding a plug we could use. But once you're buying $4k MEAs and paying private surgeons, a cost like that seems minimal. I would like to know Shaedlaer's opinion on the matter though.
-
"Though if he honestly didn't expect there to be any problems, I can't imagine why he'd take it out and take the risk of surgery again"
Yeah, we aren't really given much info about why he took it out, so it's really just speculation at this point.
"I can't seem to find the article"
http://www.ns.umich.edu/new/releases/20970-a-better-brain-implant-slim-electrode-cozies-up-to-single-neurons
Was it this one? it sounds great, but it's only been tried in rats so far, and I think it would be very hard to source even if we did want to try it in humans.
"but it's not something we should just throwaway. That's why I suggested something significantly smaller like a simple LED on a connector plug"
Yeah, if you or someone else wants to experiment with transdermals, I'm willing to help you get the components needed.
-
That's an article about the same exact thing (probably a better one, too). It's still a ways away, but if/when they become the main electrode used in humans they shouldn't be much harder to source than current MEA technology. More expensive maybe, but quite possibly a drop in the pond when you talk about implanting MEAs, especially in the brain.
I'd be willing to try something with transdermals, but I'm not really in a position to at the moment. Currently all I can do is be an idea person and program :\
-
"It's still a ways away, but if/when they become the main electrode used in humans they shouldn't be much harder to source than current MEA technology"Oh sure... if/when it'll be no problem to get, but while I don't want to sound harsh, I feel that for me, biohacking is about what we can do right now with the current tech, rather than waiting for some nebulous 'future' like all the 'armchair transhumanists'."I'd be willing to try something with transdermals, but I'm not really in a position to at the moment"that's fine, if your position changes, or someone else wants to, I'll still be here.
-
Well I'd have to save up but I'm very interested.
-
@DrEvilOneI too am very interested in this, for now I'm just waiting for the HELEDD to see if we can use it as a processing unit for this device.If you had the money, would you go ahead with this procedure? how do you feel about the risk?Also, I think many people will find this video very interesting, note the MEA metioned, could we get ahold of some of them?
-
If I had an extra four grand lying around(I believe that was the price quoted for the MEA) I would have no qualms of doing it.
