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scales in amphibians?
so how would i go about producing scales inside of a salamander i'm thinking a plasmid but what does everyone else think, maybe a plasmid that contains ectodysplasin A receptor, and ctnnb1 catenin beta 1 from say a snake but then what promtors would i use, and what vector should i use? the salamander id want to do this to is a red-backed salamander (Plethodon cinereus) they don't have a aquatic larvae stage there entirely terrestrial
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Why exactly do you want to do that? Animal experimentation isn't something that should be done for shits and giggles, especially messing with genes that could very easily massively deform the animal. Personally, I'm not gonna give you instructions for animal abuse especially if you are just doing it for aesthetics.
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@chironex said:
Why exactly do you want to do that? Animal experimentation isn't something that should be done for shits and giggles, especially messing with genes that could very easily massively deform the animal. Personally, I'm not gonna give you instructions for animal abuse especially if you are just doing it for aesthetics.bro chill its not for aesthetics im trying to study scale production and structure hands on snakes can regrow scales but in a years time red backed salamanders can regrow entire limbs in 2 months see were im going here plus both species shed i wont really be harming the animal at all why cut open countless snake eggs in the embryonic stage when those could grow into great family pets when i could make a salamander model that could do the same thing faster and u say deformed as in off target effects but we do this all the time in the model organisms we use yes can it be fucked up but it can also help us better understand the world around us there are mice strains bred and modified so they will 100 percent of the time to get cancer so we have a better idea of how it spreads and how to fight it so once again @chironex will u help me now that u know my goal and im not just messing around with life
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@chironex i bet you own a dog or a cat correct? if not at the moment you probably have at one point in time or if you haven't you know someone that has my pint with this is that dogs and cats were breed simply cause we could if you don't believe me explain to me why we have the pug or say the German Shepard or even the corgi did u know a genetic study on pugs revealed that when the genomes of pugs were compared they showed to have the genetic diversity of two third cousins or maybe the fact that weave bred them to have such smooched in faces that now around 98 percent of pugs have breathing issues or that there heads are to small for there brains now on to the German Sheppard do to kennel clubs breeding for the "ideal German Sheppard" and after so much inbreeding did you know a whopping 86 percent of German Sheppard suffer from hip-displasia now last but not least the corgi i feel like the corgis legs alone do the talking for me so id call that breeding for aesthetics but your not boycotting dogs now are yah
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First, don't tell me to chill. Second, got you one of these "."
Consider it a gift, use it occasionally.And no, I don't see where you're going. I'll try and address that clusterfuck in order, but it's all 1 sentence so it's hard to tell where one idea stops and another begins. Like an ouroboros had a baby with a wide eyed syphilitic koala.
Studying scale development, I think, is the point you're getting at. Great, cool idea. Thing is, in what setting do you plan on doing this? Are you just going to stick your pet salamander with whatever plasmid you cook up and see what happens? Cause something tells me that you coming on here for help means you probably aren't doing it in a supervised setting. Now I'm not one to say that that's a requirement if you know what you're doing, but again, you're on here asking for help with very rudimentary bio, so I doubt you know what you're doing. What experience do you have working with animals and animal models? How about in a bio lab? Genetic engineering?
Im all for experimentation in a home lab with plants and bacteria. They can't feel and if you fuck them up no one cares. They're also great to learn from and lots to explore there. I am NOT however ok with most people fucking around with animals. Now I do have friends who do animal studies, but they're professionals. It's simply on a different level and not a joke. Science is already a meat grinder for mice and zebra fish when professionals do it. It'd be far worse if ever tom dick and harry decided they wanted to fuck with their pets. Animal cruelty laws exist for a reason.
But tirade aside, your concept is just a shitty concept. Salamanders regrow, fine. But by the sounds of it that means you intend on lopping off a limb every time you wanna test something on it. Fuck. That. Noise. And what exactly do you hope to learn by doing these experiments? Sure you wanna study scale development, but why this particular experiment? How is it different than what's in the literature. What's novel? What will you learn? How will you qauntify it? Because until you outline that, there's nothing to talk about because you're just dicking around.
And finally as to your weird swing about dogs and cats. Yes we did breed them into all sorts of weird deformed shapes. Thing is though, the fucked up ones are what we call "pure breeds". I'm the first to point out that pure bred dogs are inbred as fuck and not only will I not buy one, I'll actively shame people for it. Left to my discretion, ever pure breed breeder would be shut down. My dogs are mutts, random mixes of all sorts of varieties, and as healthy as you've ever seen. And I advocate for adopting mutts for exactly that reason. If there was some magic serum I could give out that would make dogs un-fucked and free from debilitating genetic deformity I would. But that doesn't exist. I'm not a victorian "scientist" that thinks mixing and matches dogs to make weird combos is fun. And sure, some asthetic mods are legit and I would buy them. Like a GFP modified axolotl. Because those mods are harmless to the animal and have zero risk of going bad. But I'm not gonna try and graft wings on to the fuckin thing just because I can.
So, what's the point, why this organism, and why should I help you?
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chironex Ok, great points i wanna touch on a couple of things. First i dont use punctuation cause if im being honest with you i never really learned how to do it right so i choose not to. Second the setting is my home lab and i know this is the part were your gonna say but wait jimmy how is this gonna be supervised well you know the odin right? im friends with the majority of the staff and they gave me there protocol on how they do something similar inside of the frog kit. Third im all for experimentation in plants bacteria and yeast but ive been working with plasmids mostly gfp and a couple cas9 knockout plaids so i could get a grasp on everything first and i do follow the protocol and i haven't fuck anything up yet. Fourth u said i have shitty concepts? i dont think you realized what im trying to do to totality, no im not gonna cut of a whole limb im saying that as a reference to how much they can regenerate in a short time think of how complex a limb is to a scale if in 2 months it can regrow a complete appendage imagine how fast it could regrow a scale its a more close to real time model i have no intention of removing limbs cause personally i find that fucked up and there's already anuff papers on it. Fith you asked will i learn, personally i think a lot and this is why my ideals are not shitty would u rather me have a salamander that i anesthetize then remove a couple scales to study how they grow back since it mimics the same process in-vitro and i can better understand how land scales evolved how would u want me to take a snake remove a scale bet now u didn't know the snake is now handicapped for a year now it cant even shed on it own so i know what your thinking there must be a better option well there is a third one me breeding snakes simple so i can cut open there eggs a month in and study the embryos but the snake well then soon die and that was a living thing too so in summery the salamander wont fell anything and can live a normal life any way with the snakes either alot end up dead or one ends up handicapped u tell me which is the best. ive worked with animals my whole life and it might not seem like it that if u look at a lizard brain but i can tell u straight up they feel to im not saying they can do trigonometry but these animals are alive and i wouldn't want to fuck them up, cause that's fucked up. And for my closing statement i want you to know i came to you looking for guidance not because your the moderator but i look up to you, yea its kinda getting corny now ive seen every episode of the thought emporium and im a long term subscriber and if you ever read the comment streams im always there irl im not a bad guy im not even really a adult im a teen i looked to bio-hacking to express my self cause i have deep curiosity for the world around me and this goal right here i dont think i would be able to accomplish with out you and id be honored for you to help me on it so what do u say? chironex?
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So tl:dr, you saw the odins stuff and thought it'd be ok to cook up your own experiment?
Nope. Hard no. Absolutely not.
As much as I like many of the products the odin carries, the frog one I absolutely cannot stand. And for this exact reason. Since he put that out, there's now dozens of people who think it's ok to play around with animals.
And if you haven't learned how to use punctuation yet or how to spell/use auto-correct, you absolutely shouldn't be fucking with animal genetics.
Also "i've been working with plasmids" followed by "but really I've just used some of the odins kits" is not the same thing as having actual experience. The kits are cute and give you a very basic idea of what's going on, but you don't actually learn nearly enough to cook up your own experiments. It's like someone bought a chemistry kit and now thinks they can make complex drugs without blowing themselves up. It's not equivalent to actually learning from someone who knows what they're doing.
As to learning how land scales evolved, READ A FUCKING BOOK. Almost anything you could want to test, has been tested already. Go read the literature. Take a fucking herpetology class. Your ignorance on the topic is not an excuse to mess with animal genetics.
And ya, your concept is still shit. Just because a salamander regrows limbs doesn't make it a better organism to study scale development. And no you shouldn't be ripping out scales from animals, obviously, you monster. You say you'll learn a lot, but haven't outlined WHAT or HOW. how will you quantify scale development? What tests will you run? etc etc etc. These are all things you need to know before going in to something like this.
So what do I think? I think fuck off and go to school. Make it through undergrad and then do this as your masters thesis under supervision by a professor. I'm glad you look up to me and like the channel. Thing is, I've got many many years worth of experience and university behind me, and I'm surrounded by people with more experience than me so the areas where I'm a little weak they can fill in. But you're weak in all areas at the moment so you need to step your own game up first. Go to school. Learn some shit. Don't fuck with animals.
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I think everything that needs to be said in this post has been made. Please create a new thread with an outline of an actual project if you want to continue.
There is a strong difference between advocating for experimentation and advocating for experimentation on animals with no experience.
