The Big Hack (part 1: coating)

2

Comments

  • Looks like I'm late to the party on the thread. @Zwytechhacker, I would suggest NOT trying this out on anyone or yourself. My reasoning is that you want to cut off skin then poke holes in the exposed inerds underneath. You are begging for some type of infection, no matter how sterile you try to be. As soon as you grant any microbes access past the skin, things can get real nasty real quick, especially with your immune system busy trying to deal with all of the foreign material of the implant.

    The whole scarification thing is a grim process too. I'm all for body mods, but knowing what I know about the bacteria that live all around, I'm very happy keeping my skin-meats intact. When professionals build devices, they try to keep anything sticking out above the skin to a minimum because it is near impossible to keep the area from getting an infection. Even something as simple as an IV has the potential to get infected under the right circumstances.


  • edited November 2016
    Hey y'all I'm working on the next part which is nothing big (haven't had the time) but hey it's an update here's a picture of an unfinished infographic for the next part
    image
  • edited November 2016
     Would you mind explaining this image?

     Do you intend to have this implant wrap around your wrist under your skin?
  • The implant becomes the skin, and yes it is where your wrist would be
  • Whoa whoa whoa, slow down comrade that tech does not exist yet. I also think that you will have issues getting someone to do it. As well has prevent infection. Do you have a 3D printer, you should prototype with out cutting flesh. Lastly I am still not clear on what exactly this is; what are your goals?
  • edited November 2016
    Roma wasn't built in a day. I would recommend performing some smaller scale experiments first. Research a little bit into electronic design a too. Send me a PM if you want some help on that side of things.
  • if you are covering that much tissue away from the skin do you know about how the blood-flow will work? You might not want a large patch of skin separated away from the skin as you might have issues with the skin dying. You also probably don't want a closed loop like you have images of. Because what if you have muscle growth and the device would for sure cause issues right? You might want the entire thing to be more of a mesh and wire things together instead of a solid (even flexible) substrate.
  • I'm confused as to the point of this... do you have anything else other then a sketch like what the functionality is?
  • edited November 2016
    >The implant becomes the skin

    Guys, it's simple.  The implant becomes the skin.  It's that easy.  If you dont like new ideas then this isn't the forum for you all.  Jeez. 

    Personally I think it's a great idea, add me to the sign up list OP cause I definitely want to get in on the ground floor with this project.  I've got the raising platform and retractable roof, and we can meet during a thunderstorm to install it.  Just don't forget to bring the xacto knife, vodka, and a blowtorch.
  • edited November 2016
    @ightden, I only have rum. Will that work?

    @Zwytechhacker, you should see if you can model this in CAD so that we can all get a better idea of what the final product may look like. Also, what is that little squiggly rectangle bit with the eye and the papery foldy looking bits at the bottom?
  • Tissue necrosis would almost be guaranteed unless you incorporated a way for the skin to remain in contact with its blood supply.  This would not only cut off blood and oxygen flow but also create an internal pressure that will lead to ulcers, and ulcers + limited perfusion --> necrosis.

    image
  • Could the necrosis be possibly avoided by incorporating vascular and dermis iPSC's? Depending on how deep the gauntlet is put in an arm, I guess it could be feasible to stop/turn around the flow of blood at the implant level by laying down a new set of skin layers and veins that are set up to exact specifications. It could also be possible to reroute the flow through the implant to give information/open up the chance for future augmentation involving the blood flow.
  • https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3757754/pdf/main.pdf

    @Tides The above article indicates that this may be possible, but where would the blood supply originate from?  The issue would still remain that any vasculature would have to be extremely narrow and travel long distances, and my intuition is telling me that perfusion efficacy would still be lowered if this is feasible.  Also you have to take into account cost.  It would be simpler, more cost-effective, and less traumatic to the body to instead lower the surface area of the implant.
  • I agree with @misslitty here in saying that this is 10x more difficult if you want to do it right with proper blood flow and not causing serious problems with the arm over time. Beyond this being a difficult procedure, it's probably not incredibly feasible for long term implantation because of the blood flow and muscle growth under a rigid device.
  • It's a little off topic but since it's related...

    Do all of the nerves and blood vessels for the skin flow through the skin? Or are they further down below the skin and merely branch out to the surrounding skin?
  • @Jupiter I'm not sure I understand what you mean.  When you say "flow through" do you mean flow parallel to the skin?  Most of the vasculature is branched from below the dermis but closer to the surface of the skin you have the superficial vascular plexus that flows parallel to the skin and small capillary loops that are just below the surface.
  • I guess I meant... in an arm or a leg, the skin wraps around the arm (or leg) and has blood vessels and nerves that reach every bit of it. But do those blood vessels and nerves go through the arm in a more central position (closer to the bone) and then branch out to reach the skin everywhere, or do they enter the skin in one point (where isn't as important right now) and then flow through the skin to get to all the other skin.

    Maybe another question could clarify it, if somehow you lost a circular strip of skin, every layer, all the way around the forearm, would blood vessels and nerves still reach the skin in the hand?
  • Oh, yes, absolutely. The majority of the blood vessels are branched from a larger, deeper artery or vein so in that instance the hand would still have blood supply. Nerves are somewhat similar, also branching upwards, and wouldn't be greatly impacted by nerve damage in other locations.  Here's a good diagram of cutaneous receptors: image
  • That's the perfect answer to my question and the illustration is also very informative. Thanks!
  • @Zwytechhacker Cool idea but please consider doing a smaller test projects and getting everything right and reliable so you have an foundation of knowledge for transdermal implants that you can rely on and later build more advanced and complicated projects on. The idea of transdermal implants in the biohacking community seems pretty new or people is atleast starting to make progress now for eg. @chironex  has a two good videos explaining coating on his channel. I am not saying you should not work on this but it really seems like it is before it's time and would not be smart to do when you haven't tested it on a smaller scale yet. I myself think transdermals is really fascinating and would allow better interaction, transferspeeds etc. with your implant and don't get me wrong I would really love to see this being researched and used in the biohacking/grinding/transhumanism community. I am probably just repeating what @ChrisBot and @ightden was saying I agree with most of what they said but i will not encuorage to go full-retard-rant-mode like Ightden but i also get his anger.
    You can always save the idea and make it reality in the future.
  • The idea of having epithelial cells grafted into the device and basically doing a skin graft would be great, but it comes back to the same problem we've been wrestling with in every other attempt at transdermals:  What material will the cells integrate with/attach to that won't damage them, alter their genetics, break down mechanically/chemically over time, or just not stick all that well?

    Something like Parylene-C, which does bond with tissue to some degree would be great, but its mechanical properties are terrible.

    Maybe look into finding a way to coat a surface in the proteins that bind epithelial cells together (I think they're called cadherins? @glims or @cassox might be able to tell you for sure)
  • I feel like perhaps we are straying dangerously far into the world of therory.

    Have you made an progress on this project? Any research conducted? Parts ordered? Anything?
  • edited November 2016
    I have estimates for everything (except fibrinogen) and it's adding up quick which is why I haven't completed any experiments yet

    204727455.1480204727455.1&__hssc=249290200.4.1480204727459&__hsfp=308668835
    ( flex circuit $910)

    I2JD37AYrq3tiXB1x5p7N020oaAsig8P8HAQ
    ( another flex circuit manufacturer no quote yet )

    ( pure chitin 200g $172.40)

    ( 200g chitosan powder $30.00)

    yBsr1SeAdxMJlZBt3TtRbH84i0zEAaAthN8P8HAQ 
    ($16 concentrated acetic acid 120 ml )

    DuQnAZq2PBd1tgvy-BzO8kLp9HqPm1YaAqV18P8HAQ
    ($373.5 100g hydroxyapatite )

    ( different site selling different allotropes of hydroxyapatite)

    ( site selling various chemicals)

    (sodium silicate from site above $15.26)


  • Perhaps change mpleting not every component but take small steps and work on sections. It will be cheaper to buy things in parts instead of all at once. Also that post is nearly impossible to read put some spaces and if there isn't enough room do a second post
  • (bovine collagen 100g  $10.96)

    couldn't find site selling fibrinogen but found paper detailing how to make it from blood(http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1012&context=chemengtheses)

    Potassium persulfate 

    51CGSXOLTOO-UwID6HD9ZIlva3YaAqyZ8P8HAQ
    (8lb sodium hydroxide 16.92)

    TL;DR I have a source for everything except fibrinogen which I found out how to make , but the total amount for all the components comes out to $1545.04 before shipping which is an amount I don't have t spare right now 
  • edited November 2016
    Thank you.

    As a side note I recognize the sodium silicate from something else so I'm thinking you may be able to produce it from something. I'm trying to figure out why I know that name right now. I'll post it if I can find out.
  • My advice with these big projects is to take bite size pieces. Trust me, things are never as easy as they seem. With that in mind, try to make some small progress, and don't let cost stop you. Get what you can afford for now and do what you can. I am speaking from personal experince. Making no progress at all and waiting for the right time to start is even worse than failure.
  • ChrisBot said it perfectly. My own experiences say the same thing.
  • @ChrisBot & @McSTUFF if you haven't noticed this is just one part the hack so I have narrowed it down but it's still expensive and the coating which is most of the cost is crucial to the device
  • edited December 2016
    @Zwytechhacker, any updates on progress on the coating? Have you made coatings or coated anything? I'm willing to test anything you have.
Sign In or Register to comment.