MEA Project - call for collaborators

Hello, I'm AmmonRa, some of you might have seen me around the forum.

I want to undertake a rather ambitious project. 

To recreate Warwick's neural interface.

Below I'll go into more detail, but the TL;DR version is:
I am a programmer, I will be funding this project with $10k USD of my own money.
I need an electrical engineer to design/build the circuitry.
I need someone with medical knowledge to advise about system design/implementation.

Do you have the skills needed and are interested in collaborating with me on this project?

Read below for more details about what I'm planning, and let me know your skills!

Outline for MEA project

Budget: $10k
This is to cover all parts needed but not the cost of implanting the device.
Major costs include the MEA itself (probably the Utah Array from Blackrock Microsystems, possibly available for $4k) and bio-proofing the device (possibly paying Steve Haworth to do it).
Other more minor costs will be things like ICs and PCBs. If there is money left over after the device is completed, it could be put towards the cost of having a prototype implanted, but this is not a concern when designing the system.

The general plan for this system is to keep it as simple and single purpose as possible. Remember "your body is not a handbag". To that end, there will be no battery, and no LEDs. This helps to keep the system simple and power requirements low. After all, the major issue with Cicada was the battery.

My current plan is to have the system made of 3 main components: The MEA, a low power microcontroller, and a data/power transceiver.

The MEA is the simple part. Not because MEAs are simple, but because we can simply buy it off the shelf, already tested and ready to go. Currently I'm thinking of using the Utah Array because it has a proven track record for this application and because we should be able to buy it without too much trouble. One downside with the Utah Array is that it only has 96 pins, which limits the amount of information we can transceive with it.

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Comments

  • (continued from above)

    The microcontroller is to interface between the MEA and the transceiver, hopefully it's only role will be encoding and decoding of signals, so the requirements are not high.

    The transceiver is to provide power and communications to system. In order to keep the system simple, this should be a single unit i.e. both power and data. It need not be high bandwidth since the number of pins on the MEA is small. It need not be long range, since that increases power requirements and the size of the antenna. Currently I have something like NFC in mind i.e. very short range, low power and low bandwidth.
    Outside the body will be the other transceiver, which will be providing power. Ideally this second transceiver will be small enough to be wearable, but that is not a priority for the first prototype.



    I will be providing the funding for this project. I will also provide programming for the later stages of the project.

    I am looking for people with electrical engineering skills to design/build the circuitry. I am also looking for someone with medical skills to give guidance about system design.

    It should be noted that (assuming we are successful in creating the device) although I do want to get the implant, I am not willing to be first test subject. Therefore, if they want, one of the other collaborators will get to test the device at no cost (aside from the costs of implanting it).

    Also, I am proposing that we release the results of our work under some form of open source license. I have not yet to decided on the exact license/am open to suggestions.

    ps: if you are wondering if I will really spend that much money, ask around. I have donated funds to both Grindhouse Wetwares and Science for the Masses in the past. This will be my most expensive project, but I do have a record of spending reasonable amounts of money on other biohacking projects.


    links

  • I'd like to be involved in this project. I'm currently overextended in projects and would begin serious involvement within a 3 month time frame.
    If I were to "nominate" people towards this project, I'd suggest Thomas EGI. He's got the EE angle covered and would likely know others. Of course, the rest of the SFM guys simply because I've seen them at work and they get a lot done fast. Rich Lee and Amal Graafstra both have connects in the biomedical field.
  • @Cassox great! to be honest, Thomas EGI and you would be my first choice.

    I'm ok with delaying things/doing ground work for 3 months until you are available.

  • 96 electrodes are a lot. On top of that, those are microelectrodes. So you need to inject appropriate charges instead of simply applying currents. Either way, you are not going to get away with a small circuit made from components you can buy everywhere. One thing you can do is to limit yourself on a small number of active electrodes to monitor and drive (like 8 in each direction) and use a switching matrix. Those IC's are expensive enough on their own but still withing budget. The only other option would be to have a custom made IC that piggy-backs onto the array itself performing all the data conversion and analog frontend functions you need. There has been talks about that idea at VLSID'07 but custom made circuits are prohibitively expensive.
    Bonus difficulty for tapping directly into a whole bundle of important neurons, electrical failure could cause major damages.

    Long story short, i won't take that challenge. I'm feeling ok with tickling a few neurons in my skin. But stimulating a whole nerve bundle with a 96 pin electrode array... that's something for people who have a couple of years of experience with MEAs and circuits driving them.

    A 10k budget would be very nice for something like a device with 16 electrodes. With 8 doing stimulation, and a separate 8 for input from like a muscle surface or so. And that would include a battery, highest grade electrode materials, coatings and there'd still be a lot of money left at the end.
  • Thomas,
    While you may not feel qualified, your knowledge in the field would make you perfect as a collaborator. I for example am in no way qualified to perform an implant of this complexity but in terms of finding out who/how would be appropriate I have somewhat of an advantage. If your first reaction was, "hey, this is easy to do" I'd be far less trusting.
  • @ThomasEgi Warwick's system also limited the number of active electrodes. Any idea how fast you could switch which electrodes are active?
  • I'm also overextended right now, but I'd be able to do something along these lines in a few months.  Grindhouse has also talked multiple times about doing this project, and we have several interested programmers and electrical engineers (the more the merrier, right?), so if I can convince them to spend any time on it soon-ish, you might have our help as well.
  • @Ian cool, you guys have some useful experience that would definitely be helpful.
  • @AmmonRa depends on your switching matrix/multiplexer and how it is controlled. A parallel controlled 1x16 multiplexer can be switched very fast (i'd say a couple of hundret nanoseconds if not less). Bigger switching matrices often require to parse the data using serial transmission, but that still gives you a few dozen microseconds, a few milliseconds at worst.
  • So, not my field but i'm going to take a stab at pure logistics here.

    The original request is to recreate the warwick interface. So. Has anyone talked with Warwick? I mean, building a functional system from scratch is just silly if there are blueprints... Maybe i'm totally not in the loop here, but the project is "build this device", not "create this thing from scratch without any input from the people who already made it". There is no value in making a project difficult.

    On that note, if anyone has university cred and can actually get someone to answer their emails, we should be doing that, instead of trying to deconstruct an exceptionally complicated system. If not, I do have that ability, and could possibly get some feedback. Just wanted to see if anyone was more suited or already had done this thing....
  • @AmmonRa Switching matrices for large inputs can be fairly quick (we're talking about hundreds of microseconds, which isn't that bad for the signals we're interested in), but the problem is that I don't know of any single matrix that can parse 96 inputs that could fit on a small enough board.
  • @glims I have contacted Warwick on multiple occasions, and received a response each time.  I'd certainly be willing to do so again on this project if need be; though, I should mention that Warwick has several papers out describing the hardware, both the original designs and what actually ended up being implemented.  I'll try to dig up some citations later.  My ideal design would be something a bit like Warwick's original design, a fairly small chip that has no onboard power source (but perhaps a cap or something that can store energy for short periods of time), and is instead energized directly by the signals.

    Part of the problem is that Warwick's design that actually got implemented was meant for a transdermal interface, which I doubt is suitable for what we want.  It's possible that we could scale that design down, though.
  • Ok, well in that case I am happy to support this project in any way that I can with my bio knowledge and desire to move projects forward. As Cassox is part of the SFM crew as well, I feel fairly comfortable saying that SFM will help you in whatever way we can.

    Also, in the next day or so, I will download the entirety of his publications and place them in the community folder, just to make sure we all have them. Just cause. If someone is good with code and I can give you my university proxy so that you can do this with a script as a opposed to me clicking links, yay. Otherwise, it'll take a bit. There are roughly 400 documents.

    Good with in vivo work, so if you need a cutter :D....

    @AmmonRa I work in a polymer design lab. pm me about the coatings you are considering.


  • @glims, @Ian that's a good point about contacting Warwick. I guess I hadn't considered it for two reasons, because his was done 12 years ago, I assumed the design would be outdated by now, but even if it is, it would be a good starting point. Also I assumed he would not want to help people such as us, but that was a baseless assumption, and it seems wrong.


    @Ian I have linked a couple of the papers in my second post to this thread. Warwark used a "20 way multiplexer", but that was outside the body, so size was not an issue. Does anyway have ideas about how to solve this? could we get one custom built or would that be too expensive?

    If you could put together what you have from Warwick, that would be helpful.

    @glims it would be great if we could get a schematic of Warwick's system.


    also, talking about the size of the system, the connecting plugs listed on the Blackrock site seem very large.
  • @glims I can create you a script if you want, as noted I'm a programmer. 

    About coatings, I was thinking we could just pay Steve Haworth to do it, since he has experience with silicone mold injection coating implants. It seems Grindhouse got him to coat Cicada, so he seems willing to do this kind of thing. But if you have other ideas, do tell us.
  • @Ian the design documents, both the original and even more so the final circuit design would help a lot. There has been a lot of movement on bio-frontent chips within the last decade. So there is a chance that the bulky setup can be sized down using higher integrated circuits. Reading from the neurons should be somewhat possible. It's the stimulation part that worries me most. About the switching, it's true, big crosspoint switches are rare, but in a 96 pin array you get 12x8 otputs. That's 6x 16:1 Analog multiplexing. Texas instruments offers chips that can read up to 8 inputs. If we can get a good, safe and small circuit for driving outputs i'd say we could get a read OR write on 6 of any of the pins. If we duplicate the multiplexing part, reading on 6 AND writing on another 6 is within somewhat sane limits. Not sure if outputs can be switched around to sample signals at will. While theoretically possible, the capacities and high input impedance could ruin this idea quickly, so don't get your hopes up quite yet.

    TL;DR: Circuit size could be kept within somewhat reasonable limits, given we limit the number of active inputs/outputs at a time.
  • @Ian since you have had the most contact experience (at least from what this thread says) could you please get a hold of Warwick and just ask for the actual schematics? Of course, one should keep the grindy we like to cut ourselves enthusiasm to a professional low hum. 
    Let's look at the actual design before we start trying to reinvent the wheel.

    @AmmonRa How can I implement your script to download all these files? Here is the webpage I would be pulling from

    Haworth's coating should be fine. Again, we should double check with Warwick and see how he dealt with that situation. If it can be tweaked, great. If not, we should work with the system that worked in the past.
  • glims what do you want from that page exactly? most of the papers listed are just references, only a few have the actual paper.
  • ThomasEgi  That sounds like it's worth working on, it would be nice to read/write many electrodes at once, but limiting it to just a few at a time is ok for the first version.
  • References are important. You're going to do this with a script right? Take them all. This will be helpful for this and further projects. If we can scoop the whole pile, why not? Of course, getting the direct info from him is going to be the best...
  • @glims oh, you just want the references? because they can already be downloaded in a single file e.g. http://centaur.reading.ac.uk/cgi/exportview/creators/90000341/BibTeX/90000341.bib

  • Sorry, I was unclear. I was using references, I should have said resources. And ugh, it looks like they don't have the copies on their site.

    I grabbed "The Application of Implant Technology for Cybernetic Systems" and "On the control of a robot hand by extracting neural signals from the PNS" and threw them in the shared dropbox library. The second one is not by Warwick but it looks to be useful. The papers referenced by them should be good too. There is much reading to do...


  • IanIan
    edited April 2014
    Sorry, I've been too busy to check the forum in the past few days.  The email is sent; if past experience is any indicator, I'll probably receive a response within a business day or so.  I'll also keep combing through his papers to see if there is anything resembling a schematic there.

    By the way, even Warwick's device could only read or write to 25 electrodes at a time, so even with 12 at a time, we're not that far behind him.  Actually, being to accomplish that with a completely implanted device is pretty impressive to me, though we also have access to the technology of a decade later than he did.  Not to mention Texas Instruments.
  • Ian great, keep us posted.
  • Warwick's actually put me in touch with Mark Gasson (the first human to be infected with a computer virus, for those of you who don't know him) who led the design team for that project.  We'll see if he can help.
  • Excellent!
  • @Ian that is very useful. Hopefully Mark can provide more details.
  • I have a NFC chip implanted, how I can infect it? I mean what kind of virus can I use? Im guessing I will have to create the virus, right? I dont think you can download it (consciously)
  • @Jack_Sylvane in principal, you can take any computer virus and just copy it to the NFC chip. But most likely there is not enough space on the NFC chip, most only allow a few hundred bytes, and most viruses are orders of magnitude larger than that.

    To get a program small enough, you will probably need to write it yourself.


    In order for it to be a virus it will need to be able to replicate itself, I suggest you look into quines http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quine_(computing).

  • edited April 2014
    AmmonRa  Oh, I think I get it, its like those viruses we created on Notepad, "Viruses". Thanks!
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