On creating moving and potentially flame throwing transdermal implants activated by thought alone.
  • TheDiabeticGMTheDiabeticGM November 2016
    Ain't that a heck of a title?  This idea came about when I was thinking on the difficulty with having implants that can communicate directly with us, and the opposite of that. But then I remembered. Telepathic cat ears: https://www.amazon.com/Necomimi-Brainwave-Novelty-Discontinued-manufacturer/dp/B00IBRCHLO  

    This is a product from Japan that one wears on a headband, like so: 
    image

    My thought was, what if we took an implant, such as transdermal horns, and coopted the technology from these ears, or something like it (I have looked into it a little and I believe that the reader diode thing might be able to be purchased separately) and attached it to a mechanism or mechanisms implanted inside said horns.

    I feel that by doing this we should be able to make implants that can do, well, whatever you like, through the power of thought alone.  My initial idea was to just hook the brainwave reader up to little engines and have them make the horns move, as per the ears, but we could take it much further.  If one was to hollow out the horns and add lighters which where then attached to all of this one could make them shoot flames!  I may be reading this incorrectly, but it does appear that depending upon "how you think" you can make the ears do several different things, which leads me to believe that we could make implants which would also have several modes of action, potentially.  I was also thinking that if the reader could be made biologivally safe, implanting that under the skin as well might increase the signal strength and therefore, the effectiveness of the whole venture, although that is definitely a secondary goal.

    Initially, I was going to post this to not only ask for advice and opinions, but to see if anyone would actually be interested in trying this, as I have no interest in any head based implants myself, however I just talked to a friend who actually wanted to get horns anyways, and who said that he would definitely be interested in having telepathic moving horns, so this may become a reality eventually! Thoughts, opinions?  
  • ZwytechhackerZwytechhacker November 2016
    @ightden this is the stuff you were talking about and I see your point completely 
  • TheDiabeticGMTheDiabeticGM November 2016
    What exactly do you mean by that @Zwytechhacker ?
  • ightdenightden November 2016
    He's saying that I would tell you that it's a goofy fantasy idea. (I would have earlier if I saw the post)

    For starters, the tech underpinning those weeaboo cat ears are not going to "allow you to do whatever you like, through the power of thought alone."
  • ThomasEgiThomasEgi November 2016
    In case of controlling fancy looking cat ears you may want to consider training to control some otherwise useless muscles. Like the ones originally used to rotate ears around. They are still present but only, and just ever so slightly, pull up the rear part of your ear a tiny bit. But they make a great muscle to read data from using a small implant. Iirc there are 3 for each ear, and one around the neck which I can't tell if it is any useful or not. The level of control you can gain is roughly about the same as your eyebrows.
    With that you can actually control something by will and EMG, not only some ransom wibbely wobbely brainwave data. I'd still make the ears/flamethrowers/whatever an external device as transdermals are still not a good choice.
  • IvoTheSquireIvoTheSquire November 2016
    This actually reminds me of this:

    https://youtu.be/5lR3gq8-zTI?t=1393

    If we can put the actuators to pull something that will trigger a flame thrower (eg, it pulls the trigger of a water gun filled with petrol with a light at the nozzle. Something like this: ) then I don't see why we cannot. 
  • McSTUFFMcSTUFF November 2016
    If you're interested in reading brainwaves look at hacking a Mind Flex toy. They're inexpensive and have serial data right on the board. You can pipe that directly to an Arduino or a phone or a computer. Easy peezy.

    You are correct about getting a better reading when you're under the skin but you would have to span the skull and that would involve basically threading wire from one hole to another. I'm going to stop talking about that now because it's making me a touch queasy.

    Like @ThomasEgi pointed out, controlling your emotions is a lot harder than controlling a muscle. You don't want your horns erupting at the wrong time. Don't worry, it happens to lots of guys. EMG, muscle reading, can be done right at the muscle site. Check out MyoWare.

    Hardware for both of these consumer products is awfully large for implantation but if you were putting flame shooting horns on a motorcycle helmet to demonstrate the concept I'd give you respect for that.

    MindFlex Hacking Instructable link
    MyoWare link
  • ThomasEgiThomasEgi November 2016
    The EMG circuits have great potential for miniaturisation tho. There even are one-chip sollutions for that (well you need a few passives but all the analog circuitry and ADC stuff is in it). Nothing too hard about condensing that tech down into implant size.
  • TheDiabeticGMTheDiabeticGM November 2016
    @ightden  Maybe I mistyped.  Obviously, no single implant or wearable tech will allow you to do whatever you want, but what I was trying to get across was that this particular device has four different general types of thought patterns that it can respond to and therefore, up to four different types of actions it could be made to perform.  At least according to this image:

    image

    As I said in my original post I believe that there are versions of this which can be purchased separately and therefore will require even less modification than if I were to rip the ones out of the cat toy. But, as McSTUFF pointed out, there are other devices such as the Mind Flex, which operate on the same principal, so there may be even better options available out there.

      My volunteer was saying that he would not want a weapon attached to his head, so he would prefer if I could just make the horns twitch and move in a manner similar to the cat ears.  "Flamethrowers" were a bit ambitious (and they would have just been modified cigarette lighters anyway) but I don't really see why this would be considered "fantasy".  It will require a lot of testing and work, but isn't that kind of the point of creating new grinds?  To invent cool, new, and interesting types of implantable tech to bring us all closer to the transhuman cyborgs we all wish to be?  ; 3

    @ThomasEgi  I will take what you and McStuff said to heart, and look into muscle control and EMG tech as I continue to research how I will create this.  But why do you say that transdermal implants are not a good choice? 

     My friend wanted to get transdermal horns well before I suggested this to him. I wouldn't be implanting those.  He will go to a professional for that.  All I would be doing in the initial phase would be to figure out how large they would need to be, in order to fit some type of motor, and then give said data to a manufacturer who we would purchase custom bases and horns from.  All I would really be doing would be modifying these horns with the motors and such and the sensors would likely still be on an external device, such as the cat ears headband.

    I have seen some people say that transdermal implants are a bad idea before, but as far as horns go, people have been getting them implanted safely since 1996, as far as my research showed.  Like our precious magnets, Steve Haworth was the main guy who pioneered the procedure as well as the person who designed the bases, and the tech and procedures involved have only been improved and refined since then.  So why have I only heard negative stuff about them from Grinders?

    @IvoTheSquire  I was initially thinking of something more along the lines of just modifying some regular old cigarette style lighters, but as my subject decided against any type of "weapon" it is a moot point unless we are discussing someone else's attempt.  Thanks for the cool video though.

    @McStuff  Thanks for the links, man!  I will definitely look into EMG, especially since ThomasEgi seems to think that such tech is ripe for miniaturization.  I actually think I have a MindFlex chilling in my closet, so I might well end up using that for the design and test phase, but I am concerned that it would not be a direct one to one with the cat ears, and so I would be figuring out how to attach and modify something that will require completely different steps than what I will be using for the final product.
    The reason I chose the cat ears was not only because I found the idea of controlling something by "thought" to be neat, but because it was conveniently located on a headband already, so, even if I had to make my own instead of simply stripping and modifying one, the idea of combining them with a head based implant seemed like something which I felt confident I could make a reality.

    Unfortunately, both myself, and my volunteer are quite broke at the moment, so it will be awhile before either of us can actually afford to throw any meaningful amount of cash at this, but I definitely will post the results of my tests and research as things come along with this, whenever things get underway. 
  • ightdenightden November 2016
    So what purpose does it being transdermal serve if everything is external anyways?

    Seems like a "body as a handbag" idea, instead of something useful.
  • IvoTheSquireIvoTheSquire November 2016
    @ightden: I think when he said "transdermal" he meant an external device that reads brain signals through the skin, ie transdermally, not an implant that goes through the skin.

    The same way as the "t" in tDCS (transdermal direct current stimulation).
  • ightdenightden November 2016
    If you read the thread he has mentioned his friend wanting transdermally anchored horns implanted, and that this would be an "attachment" to that.  
  • TheDiabeticGMTheDiabeticGM November 2016
    When I say transdermal I do mean something that starts in the body and eventually exits it.  The general type of horns he would be interested in would be something like this:

    image

    Another example:

    image

    What he would like to get is two horns, in the typical Satyr or Satan type of orientation, generally like the first picture.  He was interested in getting the type that can screw on and off.  They come with a base which is implanted underneath the skin.  They are then moved into the desired position after which a second hole is cut, to allow the port portion to protrude through the skin. (Keep in mind, this is just a general description of the process.)  Once they are healed up anything with appropriate threading can be screwed on or off of the base, and this is the way in which they are transdermal.  The base is really the only part which is poking through the skin, and it is important that at least part of that is beneath the skin so that the horns will stay readily affixed to his head. 

    As far as my purposes go, this makes things a lot more convenient.  The horns can be screwed off for modification, and repair, and I was thinking that I might supply them power through a rechargeable battery which will be fitted into them, and being able to remove the horns from his head, will make all of that much simpler.

    Now, I am not really sure what you mean by "body as a handbag".  It sounds a little derogatory.  But if you mean that it sounds like this project is purely aesthetic in nature, then yes, I would agree with that.  His horns, when completed, will do nothing, but sit on his head, and wiggle around.  I was thinking up all kinds of functions for them but, since they will be installed on him, and that is all he wanted, the project will remain strictly non-utilitarian.  It is like Firefly Tattoos, in that the entire goal of this project is to create something with the sole purpose of looking cool.  

     I would like to be able to make everything fit into the horns and dispense with any "external" equipment, but I am unsure that I would be able to make everything work in such a small space.  (Again, I am duly grateful for all the links, maybe I will indeed be able to downsize everything after all! : 3)

    Some of the machinery will go into the horns themselves, such as the batteries and the movement modules, and some of it will remain attached to the headband, or , the EMG device/implant, depending on what route we end up taking betwixt the two of us.
  • ZwytechhackerZwytechhacker November 2016
    the reason that we are against transdermals is that they are hotspots for infection, and therefore they usually reject this is because there are little microscopic holes between the implant and the skin/body so bacteria can enter in there is a lot of research being done on coatings to correct this problem 
  • TheDiabeticGMTheDiabeticGM November 2016
    @Zwytechhakcer

    Does the rate of infection not go down over time as with a regular implant then?  The holes don't eventually heal up?
  • ChrisBotChrisBot November 2016
    Nope, there will always be microscopic holes. They can be created even just in everyday life by moving around and such. In fact, most transdermals that you see today will eventually grow out. We need skin to grow into the implant, not just make a seal around it. 

    The biggest improvement that is being developed right now by @chironex is an extra-cellurlar matrix that the body can grow into and around. Kind of like biogel stuff in Deus Ex.
  • IvoTheSquireIvoTheSquire November 2016
    Yeah. Why do transdermal like this when you can just have a hat that shoots out flames with thought alone? That already sounds awesome.
  • JupiterJupiter November 2016
    I'll argue against making something wearable just because it's perfectly capable of doing all the same stuff in wearable, as opposed to implant, form. Implants are cooler. Fans of it's already implanted, its easier to eventually incorporate body-based power sources. Such as heat or movement.

    Just I'd throw that out there, for all those of you suggesting things could be wearable just because the technology doesn't need implanting. Not that I'm against wearables, but anyone can make wearables. Heck, these days every tech corporation out there is doing something wearable.
  • ightdenightden November 2016
    Even as a hat it sounds like a retarded idea.  
  • McSTUFFMcSTUFF November 2016
    @ightden, if you're opposed to new ideas maybe this isn't the forum for you.
  • IvoTheSquireIvoTheSquire November 2016
    @ightden: Sorry, will have to have a better reason than a random comparison with mentally disabled people who deserve respect.
  • JohnDoeJohnDoe November 2016
    What about a dermal? The pictures you posted I am pretty sure are just dermals.
  • TheDiabeticGMTheDiabeticGM December 2016
    @JohnDoe  
    At least some of the horns, the ones that I was inspired by, belong to Samppa Von Cyborg.  Every sourve that talks about them which I have seen states that they are transdermal in nature,(I believe he talks about them for a little while in the video accompanying this post) and he has supposedly had them in for years with no issues, which is why I thought they would be neat to experiment with. I honestly don't know much about Dermal horns, as I only really looked into transdermal ones, as that is what my patient was interested in getting.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7Jz0XNkJmU