Looking for some Parylene Coated N52 magnets!
  • dmrosedmrose October 2016
    I'm looking to get my hands on some Parylene Coated magnets for implant. Wondering if anyone had extras or if anyone would be interested in a group buy?
  • BoboTheEpicBoboTheEpic October 2016
    I'd also like to know if there's any reliable source for these.

    EDIT: Well, I just bought some from https://supermagnetman.com/products/d1005a-parylene?variant=11410256259

    I dunno how reliable they're going to turn out to be, I mostly just want to see if I'm game to perform self-implantation with only ice water and basic implant supplies.
  • BirdhandzBirdhandz October 2016
    Only N35 but Ebay has some parylene coated magnets.

    http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2047675.m570.l1313.TR1.TRC0.A0.H0.Xparylene+magnet.TRS0&_nkw=parylene+magnet&_sacat=0

    I have a feeling these would not be good for implant use because they are weaker than the N52 ones and hard to tell how good the coating is.

    Might be worth checking out ... In fact, I just ordered some of the 3x1 magnets.  I already bought some nickel coated ones and strong but tiny magnets have many other uses besides implanting them so I'm sure I can find something to do with them.
  • BoboTheEpicBoboTheEpic October 2016
    Thank you for finding those, but yeah N35 is the lower end of what is currently sold, probably wouldn't be good enough for any sensation. I've purchased some of the parylene magnets from above, as well as their nickel only counterparts and some parylene coated M63-ish sized magnets.

    I got a fairly large sample of the parylene magnets, so I can fault check them and find the ones least likely to fail short term, and implant one (which, given the history of these magnets, is still liable to bust up in my skin weeks or months later and reject even with no outward defect signs) just for the sake of getting it done. It'll be a learning experience and if it goes bad, so be it.

    Still hyped for cyberise.me TiN coated mags though, woo woo!
  • BirdhandzBirdhandz October 2016
    I figure, with the weaker magnets, I will try gluing one on a finger and see if I can feel the one power adapter here that worked with the non-coated ones.  If I can feel it, I will stick one in some salt water for a few days or so and see if there is any reaction.

    I'm unsure what all chemicals parylene is resistant to.  It looks like it is resistant to almost everything unless it is at a high temperature.  I couldn't find anything about the resistance to bleach but I'll give it a try once I get the magnets unless the coating looks damaged already. 

    I am also still waiting on the TiN coated ones and would rather trust those ones but the parylene coated ones are a lot cheaper even if only one out of the 25 are good.  Plus, they are available right now.  If none of them are good enough to be implanted, I'll use them for other projects that don't need to be sterile and biosafe.
  • BoboTheEpicBoboTheEpic October 2016
    The nickel-only 3mmx1mm I am also going to try sticking to a fingernail for a week or so, see if I can get any reading off it.

    I'm still not sure how long or what I should be testing the parylene stuff in, but I've got anywhere from a week to 21 days (international shipping WOO!) to work that out. I'm guessing we want something that won't react with parylene but will react readily and visibly with nickel.

    And yes! Even if all of them turn out to be busts they were pretty cheap and magnets are tonnes of fun.
  • BirdhandzBirdhandz October 2016
    It took me a while to find it but @Cassox has the start of a very good write up on the implant procedure.

    http://augmentationlimitles.ipage.com/?page_id=252

    His site also has information about the testing procedures.

    Nickel Exposure Series 0


    Nickel Exposure Series 2

    Forced Failure Testing

    Surgical Hand Scrubbing


  • ightdenightden October 2016
    Don't cheap out with n35, this is something you're implanting in your body long term and you want to go cheap??   Sensation will be low to zero with a magnet that weak.
  • BirdhandzBirdhandz October 2016
    I'm not convinced that the weaker magnet would have low to zero sensation.  I will test it by gluing one to a finger before even considering an actual implant but I just glued a tiny sliver of a refrigerator magnet to my finger and I can still feel the power adapter I have been using as a test.  I can also feel a permanent magnet from the opposite side of the finger so the magnetism is going completely through the finger.

    Obviously, stronger magnets would be better but I can't believe that there would be no sensation from a weaker magnet.

    Implanting would put the magnet further away from the source of magnetism you are trying to feel but it would also be in better contact with the nerves.

    See Cody'sLab video 2 year magnet update.  He accidentally left a sliver of a magnet implanted after it broke and that sliver still works.  Not for picking up stuff but that isn't my goal anyway.

    IF ... Yes IF I did implant one of the weaker magnets and find out there really is NO SENSATION, I promise I will not attempt to sell the thing to anyone else.
  • JohnDoeJohnDoe October 2016
    Be mindful of a placebo effect.... Sounds like your experiencing one....
  • BirdhandzBirdhandz October 2016
    @JohnDoe

    It can't be a placebo effect on this one.  The power adapter doesn't give much sensation with such a tiny and weak magnet (a sliver broken off a refrigerator magnet) but I can tell if it has power or not.  The sensation with the permanent magnet is much stronger and I can locate that magnet even when "hidden" under a wooden table.  I did once own a quartz crystal so I suppose I could just have psychic powers but I can't see how feeling magnetic fields could be a placebo.  It's a physical sensation and not just a thought or "feeling".

    I'm not trying to convince anyone to settle for a weaker magnet.  Hopefully the TiN coated ones are available soon.  Those ones will be over a hundred times more expensive
    ($0.40 each compared to $50) than what I ordered but they should be stronger, safer (tested for implant use) and have a longer lasting coating (hopefully).
     
  • BenbeezyBenbeezy October 2016
    I for one don't trust super magnet man with much. I have ordered a lot of magnets with parylene coating and had almost all of them fail. I now order around 50 to get about 10 good ones. They are cheap enough that you should order then and test them, and I even double coat them with other bio safe things just to make sure
  • BoboTheEpicBoboTheEpic October 2016
    @Benbeezy Well, that's pretty low quality. :( I've ordered 25 of two different parylene coated magnets from there, how do you test their coats?
  • BenbeezyBenbeezy October 2016
    I have been having a pretty good result testing things by putting them in soapy hot water to get rid of the surface tension, if the water touches the neo you get a reaction https://www.webelements.com/neodymium/chemistry.html if you don't see any kind of reaction then you are fine. But it's pretty likely that you will see something 
  • BoboTheEpicBoboTheEpic October 2016
    Awesome, so I'm looking for bubbles of hydrogen gas. Thanks very much! I guess I'll post a failure rate here once I get it delievered.
  • BirdhandzBirdhandz October 2016
    I got the cheap, weaker magnets from ebay in just a couple days.  I played with one gluing it to my finger and it seems strong enough to me but I don't have much to compare it to.  It is much better than the sliver of broken refrigerator magnet and the coating on the couple I have examined closely looks good to me.

    I'll try the hot soapy water but I have had one soaking in a ¬10 percent solution of household bleach for 2 or 3 days now with no obvious reaction.  I plan to soak one in a salt water solution and other tests before considering any for actual implant use but I already have alternative uses for them either way.  

    @Benbeezy How did your Atom Adhesive (or something like that) resin coating experiments go?  Any good ones (not necessarily implanted) yet or it still in the development and testing stage.  If I was testing that coating method, I'd probably use the even cheaper non parylene ones and then hopefully end up with outdoor grade magnets for hobby uses even if they are not implant worthy.

    Wouldn't a nickel coating under the parylene keep the hot soapy water test from working?  I never sacrificed one of the magnets I just bought to see how easy it is to damage the coating but I didn't think it would be parylene directly over the raw magnet but I must be wrong.  
  • BirdhandzBirdhandz October 2016
    Here's an update on my testing of the cheap ebay magnets.

    I soaked one in a bleach solution for a couple days with no visible reaction.

    Next, I took the one I had previously glued to my finger and chipped a piece off using a pair of pliers to expose the magnet.  That one became noticeably corroded after a day or two soaking.  Probably faster but I didn't check it. 

    After rinsing the bleach off that magnet, I was able to peal some of the remaining parylene coating off.  The magnet was not nickel plated under the parylene so, if the parylene coating has any defects, the neodymium would be directly exposed.

    Now having a damaged magnet that had the core half exposed, I tried the hot, soapy water.  I tried it several times using steaming hot water and then even boiling hot water with no real noticeable reaction.  I thought I saw a few tiny bubbles once but it could have just been from the very hot water.  I don't know if I'm doing something wrong or don't really have a neodymium magnet.  Whatever the reason, I wouldn't trust a hot soapy water solution to tell if the coating is good or not with the magnets I got.  I only used about 4 drops of dish washing soap in 4 ounces of hot water so maybe it needs lots more soap?

    I still have to do other tests on these magnets but they have done pretty good so far.  The fact that the thin parylene coating is the only thing protecting the neodymium isn't the best choice for an implant though.  I'm not saying these magnets wouldn't work and I still plan to do more testing.  The coating does seem pretty tough but ... it would be nice to have a backup layer just in case.

    I wonder if the TiN coated ones we are all waiting for have more than just the TiN?  I guess one good coating is all that is needed but I'd at least check into the dental epoxy stuff as a backup if using the cheap ones I found.

    Of course, ten bucks worth of magnets and twenty five for some special "glue" and the magnet quickly approaches the cost of a good, tested one unless you wanted (and got) several good ones out of all the effort.


  • AmosKamalAmosKamal October 2016
    How much did the parylene coated magnets cost? And do you have a place you like to get it from? Looking to get some cheap ones to do some experiments with
  • BirdhandzBirdhandz October 2016
    The ones I got were from Ebay.  I've only tried a couple of them so I might find some bad ones but they look good to me so far.  I don't know if they are implant good but they look nice and should have lots of non implant uses.

    http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2047675.m570.l1313.TR1.TRC0.A0.H0.Xparylene+magnet.TRS0&_nkw=parylene+magnet&_sacat=0

    They were $9.99 for 25 magnets with free shipping.

    Keep in mind that this particular magnet is only N35 strength.  Whatever that means?  It seems strong enough to me but I think you could find the stronger ones if you look.

    DRIFTING OFF TOPIC:

    Some of my thoughts for non implant uses for these tiny but strong magnets are listed below.  You wouldn't want to just throw away all the ones that fail your testing right?

    The first obvious use for these magnets, besides holding stuff to the refrigerator, is as a latch to keep a door shut or a lid in place.  Holding a mosquito net door/curtain closed is another idea.

    Another use for these parylene coated ones and the excuse I gave myself when I bought them is to build tiny stir bars for stirring small vials or tubes of whatever needs kept stirred.  Like a yeast starter for brewing or baking.  I haven't tried autoclaving (pressure cooking) the magnets to see how much strength that would take away from them.  They seem to handle bleach and alcohol fine.  I haven't tried hydrogen peroxide yet either but it is on my mental list of tests.

    Here's another use for these tiny, chemically resistant magnets.

    http://eco-sphere.com/

    I have no connection to this company other than I once bought one of their miniature worlds.  Looks like the price went up since I got mine too.  Mine died in a house fire years ago but ... the whole point of this idea.  Inside that sealed glass ball was a tiny magnetic algae scraper.  This allowed you to keep the glass cleaned off if the little shrimp trapped inside didn't eat it fast enough.

    I have made my own somewhat similar jars full of pond life before trying to get a self sustaining ecosystem going and see what survives.  A non rusting little magnet like I just got should work great with a tiny felt disc or something glued on to wash the jar from the inside without opening it.

    Closer to the biohacking topics, someone here made magnetic earphones by sticking a tiny magnet into a foam hearing protector ear plug.  I gotta remember to buy a few packs of those sometime and try building one.
     
  • BenbeezyBenbeezy October 2016
    Do more extensive testing. the surface tension of bleach might not be low enough to show you things like very tiny pin holes in the coating. Those holes can be very very small especially around the edges, so if you want a really good result try finding things that will react quickly with neo and very low surface tension 
  • BirdhandzBirdhandz October 2016
    @Benbeezy

    How fast or how aggressive of a reaction am I looking for?  I put the damaged magnet into a baby food jar filled with hot, soapy water and then stuck the whole thing in the microwave to really heat it up.  If I examine the magnet very closely using a magnifying glass and good light, I MIGHT be able to see very tiny bubbles forming.

    I don't know if I'm expecting too much of a reaction or if my magnet is not really neodymium.  The bleach does corrode the damaged magnet but that magnet is still pretty solid even after soaking for days in various liquids including a bleach and acid mixture that did have a visible reaction.

    My only other thought is that there is still a very thin coating of parylene that didn't get removed and that is protecting the base material of the magnet.
  • JoshJosh October 2016
    A magnet in a microwave. Huh. And my parents told me sticking a fork in a microwave is dangerous.

    Anyways, maybe the type of soap matters? Or maybe there's a specific ingredient in some soaps that aren't found in others?
  • BirdhandzBirdhandz October 2016
    The magnet is very tiny and it was in water.  I didn't notice any sparking or anything other than the water got boiling hot.

    I have seen other places online mention that neodymium "reacts slowly with cold water, but quite quickly with hot water to form neodymium(III) hydroxide:"

    It also says that it "reacts vigorously with all the halogens:"  That would explain the reaction with the bleach although I'm not sure I would call it a vigorous reaction.

    I think I will try to clean the damaged magnet with denatured alcohol or some other solvent to try to clean any oils off this magnet.  I might just run the magnet over a piece of sand paper to expose a fresh surface.  Something is keeping the damaged magnet from reacting as vigorously as I thought it should.  If I can't get one I know is bad to react fast and obvious enough, I'll never be able to trust the "good" ones.

    I assume the soap was just to reduce the surface tension to make sure the hot water contacts the neodymium (if any is exposed). 

    Unless we just trust that the TiN coated ones are checked and safe, we will need some test before they are implanted too.  What is a good test for them?  Bleach and peroxide can't be used with that coating from what I have read.
  • BenbeezyBenbeezy October 2016
    @Birdhandz @Josh you are right that you can't test TiN with peroxide it will eat away the entire coating and then eat the magnet, its crazy to watch and pretty fun. But very bad to implant haha. I was testing TiN with water, soap, and salt (just to make it a little more like a person) and had all of the run I had fail, same with almost all of the parylene one that I had tested. The way that it failed was the presence of rust on the surface, for most of them I noticed small amounts of rusting (when dabbing dry on clean paper towel) with in about 2 hours of soaking. I also held the magnet suspended on the wall of the cup with another magnet on the outside. If you are not getting any reaction with normal neo then you are doing something wrong and you need to find a ratio of all of the ingredients to make it react with the neo before testing coatings.
  • BirdhandzBirdhandz October 2016
    It sounds like I was just expecting a lot more reaction than I was getting.  I tried the hot soapy water again after scratching the surface of the exposed neo.  It seems to oxidize and go from a shiny silver look right after scratching it to a dull black after it was soaked in the hot water.  I thought the oxide layer would flake off and that there would be a constant stream of bubbles as it reacted.  Instead, there are a few tiny bubbles on the magnet but not a stream of bubbles.

    I will have to test some of the undamaged magnets using this same method and see if any rust shows up.  With the now very damaged magnet, it would be hard to tell if it was rust or just bits of broken magnet that wiped off.  Plus, it has already been soaked and reacted with bleach.

    With the new magnets, assuming I don't get any initial rust staining or other indications of failure, I will try stabbing the surface with a needle or scratch the surface but not expose as much as I did on the first sacrificed magnet.

    Thanks for explaining the testing and the results of the failure. I honestly expected a reaction that resulted in complete destruction of the magnet especially from the bleach but it is still solid.  Just not as pretty as it was before the coating was scratched and chipped away.  Still plenty good enough to make a refrigerator magnet.
  • c00p3rc00p3r October 2016
    so whats a recommended, set of tests before implantation, saltwater bath looking for rust and bubbles etc?
  • BenbeezyBenbeezy October 2016
    @c00p3r make sure you have soap in it. Give me a little bit of time and I will try and come up with a true ratio. But I was seeing a kind of rust on the surface. If you get magnets coated in nickel first then the bio coating you can do a normal nickel test.
  • c00p3rc00p3r October 2016
    i did an over done saltwater with a gold coated batch and they failed pretty quickly, currently soaked a set of paraylene coated magnets so far i have seen no reactivity in the week they have soaked. of the gold batch the last of them failed in two weeks... guess i will add some soap to the current batch and see if anything changes.
  • im a newbe on this subject. but what are you testing exactly? i would be curious to know how the coatings will react to the ph level of a human body and if they would remain intact. and maybe test some impact damage. but i am reading about testings with bleach and handsoap. bleach has a ph level of 12.5 and handsoap a ph level of 9-10. but a human bodies ph level is only 7.4. any chance that the tests are to rough on the coatings? has anyone thought about testing the coatings in saliva or blood or something? i would say that if the coating survives that it would certainly survive implanted under the skin.
    i just ordered parylene coated magnets. i have a piece of wire behind my teeth from a former bracelet. so im thinking of sticking a magnet to that for a day and see what happens. if i am mistaken in this please let me know. 
  • @animania  Be careful you don't swallow the magnet.  One might not hurt but more than that can cause serious problems.