NFC tags "Not safe to implant" objections
  • Rocco8620Rocco8620 October 2016
    I am about to implant an RFID tag and while looking for a piercer willing to do it I foud one who basically say "The tags from dangerous things and cyberise.me are insecure. You don't know how they are produced, sealed, sterilised, they can create infection etc. So I recommend to not use them" He recommended a tag from Saampa Von Cyborg. What arguments can I use to say that they are safe? 

    Am I wrong? Should I just follow his advice? He is asking me 250€ for tag + implant which is quite expensive I think
  • BirdMachineBirdMachine October 2016
    Not sure what he's going on about, as they've been successfully implanted multiple times across multiple people. Did he give you the play by play on how Saamppa does his production, sealing, sterilizing, and what steps he might take to make them somehow less prone to infection than any other kind of implant? Cause if not, well, then those questions are the same across the board. Was that info he got from Saamppa himself? Or a liability coverage thing maybe?

    Pretty sure all of the ones on Dangerous things list how they're sterilized before shipment, and same with cyberize. Not to mention, well if you browse around some of the threads, you'll be able to get some insight into how they're often sealed too. All implants, and really all piercings, and all mods in general including tattoos come with a risk of infection. As long as the products and procedures are sterile, the only other line of preventing that is how you care for them while they heal.

    Sounds like a lot of FUD to me, but I also can't really blame a piercer who maybe just hasn't learned about these other companies yet and wants to protect both their practice and their clientele.
  • WinterhammerWinterhammer October 2016
    Sounds to me he was looking for the upsell. The chips sold as kits in the injectors from dangerous things and cyberize are sterilised. Having got one through Dangerous Things EU partner I can tell you the packaging has an indicator on the side that shows a colour when exposed to the sterilisation agent, so Birdmachine is completely right.

    Personally speaking I have had a ton of piercings reject, be infected etc, and I have had no issue what so ever with my chip so far. As long as you follow good after care you should be OK.
  • Rocco8620Rocco8620 October 2016
    Today i spoke to him again, his arguments are that saampa is a professional as he create and sell a lot of other transdermal piercings and things like that. He also say that the the low price may be and indicatior of low quality.

    Does anyone know saampa von cyborg? I emailed him to learn about the prices of his tags but he refused to tell me anything related to shipping/pricing as long as I don't provide details of my piercing studio and my professional portfolio. Which I obviously don't have. Does anyone know the pricing? 

    What can be an average cost of an implantation without the cost of the tag? 

    Thanks
  • Rocco8620Rocco8620 October 2016
    Also he is the only piercer I have found until now who know about RFID implants
  • CassoxCassox October 2016
    Hmm. Saampa is one of the least trust worthy people I know. If this guy is this seriously snowed I would find another piercer. I know Amal and he wouldn't sell a substandard product. If you go to another studio and have them contact dt, they will educate the piercer.
  • ightdenightden October 2016
    lol ya you gettin fleeced son.
  • CassoxCassox October 2016
    Cyberise.me is similar. If you have then contact the company I'm sure he'll explain the process às well as discuss any concerns. Both of these companies were selling implants long before Saampa tried to jump on board.
  • MeanderpaulMeanderpaul October 2016
    Might I suggest a friend does the procedure if it's causing that much trouble.

    I just want to point out mine did NOT reject and the standard of sterilization was...well not there when I did mine. NOT SAYING IT CANT HAPPEN.
  • WinterhammerWinterhammer October 2016
    I was able to implant mine myself with the aid of a sterilised butterfly clip and some topical numbing cream using one of the preloaded kits. There are some good guides available through the previously mentioned stores or YouTube as I too had problems finding a piercer. This community is pretty awesome for advice and guidance :)
  • mmuyskensmmuyskens October 2016
    Sounds like a partnership to me.

    Just my two cents.
  • Rocco8620Rocco8620 October 2016
    I will probably implant it with the help of a friend
  • mmuyskensmmuyskens October 2016
    There we go!

    I'll go ahead and throw this link;

    https://dangerousthings.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Professional-Guide-to-2x12mm-transponder-installation.pdf

    I'd recommend reading it before attempting as it contains good information to know.
  • Rocco8620Rocco8620 October 2016
    Thanks but i have already read that guide about 10 times while considering the idea :D 
  • BirdhandzBirdhandz October 2016
    @mmuyskens, Thanks.  I had never seen that guide before and it looks like good information to know even if someone else does the implant.  Wouldn't hurt to print out an extra copy or share the pdf with the piercer.  I would assume they would explain what they were about to do before sticking a needle in your hand or slicing you open.  I'd want to be pretty sure it was going to end up in the right spot and work the first try.  The same information should be useful the firefly implants too and I know location would be very important or the light wouldn't show through the skin.  Probably almost as important with the tags if the reader has to be real close.  I'm not sure how close they need to be since I have only played with one hooked to an Arduino and those tags had to be almost touching the reader. 

    I'd say the piercer in question was just trying to sell the kind they had or use.  They might still implant one for you if you bought your own but I'd wonder if they might not be as careful as they should because they could always blame that cheaper device you wanted.  We still have the
    250€ ones if you want to try again???

    Sounds like you (@Rocco8620) have it figured out to do it yourself with the help of a friend.  It might sound like overkill but you might consider making an actual, written checklist just to make sure you don't forget something.  It's easy to accidentally miss an important step and, in this case, that could mean infection or rejection.

    Good luck.
  • Rocco8620Rocco8620 October 2016
    given that this is my first implant i will be extra carefull 
  • AlexSmithAlexSmith October 2016
    @Rocco8620 I can't speak for either Dangerous Things or Saampa Von Cyborg, but I can answer any questions about the cyberise.me.
    I put a lot of effort into making sure the implants are safe, and only accept money for them once I am confident they are safe. Any implant that I'm not sure about yet is given away for free to people who understand the risks. This helps to avoid ethnical conflicts of interest.

    I source the implant coatings from companies with good quality assurances in countries with high safety regulations. Currently my implants use coatings sourced in America, the UK and Germany. 

    Implants are tested to make sure they are fully sealed and the chips are working before they are sent out.  

    I have a professional autoclave for sterilizing implants before they are sent out, see the picture below. 

    I am not away of anyone who has got an infection when implanting one of my implants, that's not to say it hasn't happened, there is always a risk of injection with any body mod, but the fact that I haven't heard of even a single case suggests the risk is pretty low.

    image
  • Rocco8620Rocco8620 October 2016
    @AlexSmith Thanks for your words. I believe that your implants are safe. I also admire you for your effort to create new and safe body mod. When the implanter told me the things I mentioned before I thought that your implants was safe but i didn't have good arguments to say that to the implanter. 

    Also saampa didn't want to discuss with me any detail about price, tag type, way of producing them etc. I don't like that absence of transparency. 
  • Rocco8620Rocco8620 October 2016
    I am excited to get it implanted!
  • decaldecal October 2016
    I was looking into the safety of RFID injection in the mid-2000's on the "Tagged Forums" (linked to archived mirror below.)

    http://web.archive.org/web/20060202092310/http://tagged.kaos.gen.nz/

    I came across a veterinary journal regarding the development of malicious tumors in dogs that had been tagged and that pretty much killed my interest for the time being.  

    Hyperlink to full whitepaper is below:
    http://vet.sagepub.com/content/43/4/545.full.pdf

    Is anyone able to counter that research and explain why it doesn't apply to humans or newer tags or w/e to help alleviate my fears?

  • egoodsegoods October 2016
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microchip_implant_(human)#Potential_problems - the reports that reference that (and other) research is erronous, misleading, and worded in such a way as to sound "scary"... Hospitals are using implants for patient ID (it's in the Wikipedia link), I think we're well into "safe" zone for this tech.
  • BoboTheEpicBoboTheEpic October 2016
    The studies of tumours relating to rfid implants stopped in 2006... we've gone a decade without another scare so it's safe to say whatever may have been causing these tumours has been remedied accidentally or intentionally.
  • Rocco8620Rocco8620 October 2016
    I suggest you to open a new thread about that to discuss more 
  • CassoxCassox October 2016
    Actually, it's a real thing. . But there has never been an occurrence in humans. What you're talking about is called a post injection sarcoma. Any injury or inflammation can lead to these. They are most common in cats actually. Cats don't handle oxidative stress well. This is also why cats die from acetaminophen. It's semi-common in cats. Common in lab rats which have a propensity for tumors anyhow. There are cases of it in ferrits. There are a few cases in dogs. According to the linked article, 3 so far. But it isn't just a reaction to bioglass we are talking about. It's a reaction to an injection. There is a higher likelihood if aluminum is present but it doesn't have to be.

    So think of piercings in general. In the us, there is still a lot of shitty jewelry containing nickel. Nickel is significantly worse in terms of reaction and inflammation. If humans were prone to this kind of reaction we'd be seeing it with ear piercings. I don't expect you to take my word for it but the safety record of rfids is fantastic.
  • Rocco8620Rocco8620 January 14
    After some difficulties with shipping i have finally received my NFC tag and have implemented it yesterday! Thank you everyone for you moral support.

Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Login with Facebook Sign In with Twitter Sign In with OpenID Sign In with Google

Log In Sign Up

In this Discussion

Tagged