Implanting Magnets Via Syringe
  • I stumbled across this thread: http://forum.biohack.me/discussion/322/magnetic-implant-via-injection-method/p1 and was looking for some follow-up info.  It seems to me that implanting using a needle would be much simpler and possibly less traumatic than the classic method.  Is there any reason that this is not a more popular method?
  • lolsmcfeelolsmcfee July 2016
    i imagine the reason is the magnet would get stuck on the metal needle 
  • It's just "newer".
  • kjwxkjwx July 2016
    I had my 3x7mm magnet implanted with a non-ferrous piercing needle four years ago. Personally, I'm a big fan of this method. It was quick, almost blood-free and the resulting wound healed with no scar. On the downside, it's dependent on having an injector that can accommodate your magnet size and I believe it's considered slightly more traumatic on your flesh than using a scalpel. However, for DIYers implanting without a support person present, it makes insertion far easier and likely reduces the chance of rejection due to the pocket being too shallow.
  • Thank you @Zerbula !  That was exactly what I was looking for.

    @kjwx That was one of the reasons I was interested in it.  I will likely be doing it alone and a needle injection seems like it would be a lot simpler for me to do.  

    Someone in the other thread was saying that the firefly needle might work well. I was thinking of getting a Firefly Tattoo first, so I will keep the needle and see if it will work once I get my magnets and then report back to ya'll to say if it seems like a possibility. : )
  • AlexSmithAlexSmith July 2016
    @TheDiabeticGM  the needles used for the Fireflies do fit the magnets (3mm), however they are ferrous, so the magnet wants to stick to the needle, that may not be a problem because the plunger is plastic, so you may be able to push the magnet out ok, but I have not tested it by doing an live implant. It is something I'm looking to test, and if it doesn't work possibly finding some non-ferrous needles.
  • NLmaxNLmax July 2016
    I would Love to get my magnet implanted by an injector.
    I'm totally interested
  • ChrisBotChrisBot July 2016
    Same here, I'm much more comfortable with the idea of injecting instead of slicing, especially in such a sensitive area. I am still curious as to whether or not the trauma induced from injection would effect the long term sensitivity of the implant.
  • kjwxkjwx July 2016
    ChrisBot: I've had no problems with mine. I can pick up bigger items than most other implantees I know - cutlery, lighters, keys etc, as opposed to bottle-tops and pins. And I still have no problem feeling EMFs four years down the track.
  • ChrisBotChrisBot August 2016
    I just bought some 6g piercing needles, hopefully they will come within the next week or so! I plan on using a 3d printed injector that was previously discussed somewhere else on the forum.

    http://store.painfulpleasures.com/only-1-needle-20g-18g-16g-14g-12g-10g-8g-6g-single-sterilized-body-piercing-needle.html
  • FroFro August 2016
    Hello,
    I love the idea of quicker healer and completely agree with you that, even though I am terrified of needles, needles would be far easier than scalpel especially for novices. One question, what sites are you thinking about with method? As I don't think you could get it deep enough in the usual finger site (either that or I've just got really tiny fingers) and what do you think to the subcutaneous healing? Do you think this would cause more underlying damage than pocketing?

    @kjwx: would love to here how long it took to fully heal and where it's located. If it's not too personal.
  • kjwxkjwx August 2016
    Fro: Left ring finger, so yes it's quite possible to reach the depth needed. It's  a 3x7mm cylinder, which I personally think is a bit too big for a female hand, well mine anyway but it's still going strong four years later.
    As for healing: With no stitches, it took slightly longer to heal than my other implants but the wound had fully closed within a week and was 100 per cent better between another week to 10 days after that. My piercer had told me if I could keep the magnet in there for three weeks, it likely wouldn't reject so that deadline is the one I mostly remember from back then.
    (PS: It's the big white square in my X-ray there.)
  • ChrisBotChrisBot August 2016
    So I got some 6g needles and printed out one of the injectors that was designed by @aviin, and was discussed in some other far flung thread. I also have some other non-bio magnets that are almost the exact same size as the m31's, and was messing around with them. 

    The needles that I got were ferrous, but they were less than a dollar each, so I figured it would be fun to experiment. I was thinking, that it might be possible to glue one of these magnets on the end of the plunger, and have it help repel the magnet you are trying to implant. One of the flaws that I see with this is that once the biomagnet was free of the enclosed confines of the needle, it would want to flip and then immediately stick to the plunger magnet. I will experiment a little further.
    image

     
  • NLmaxNLmax August 2016
    @chrisbot Looks great! Can i Have the stl files so i can print and test the autoclave?
  • ightdenightden August 2016
    assuming you're trying to implant a disc shaped magnet, if you try to glue another magnet to the end of the plunger it's just going to cause the one you're trying to implant to flip around inside the needle and stick to that magnet instead...  
  • ChrisBotChrisBot August 2016
    @NLmax, here you go. (on mobile so I can't embed)
    http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1582152

    @ightden, that was precisely the concern I mentioned
  • NLmaxNLmax August 2016
    @chrisbot , thanks! I'll start testing early next week as Im leaving for the weekend tomorrow with gf
  • lolsmcfeelolsmcfee August 2016
    awesome progress i cant wait for this to be a thing 
  • ChrisBotChrisBot August 2016
    Well, good news and bad news.

    Good news: using the instrument pictured above I implanted my first magnet into my ring finger.

    Bad news: I didn't actually get to inject it...

    It's late so I will do something that resembles more of an official write up tomorrow.
  • MeanderpaulMeanderpaul August 2016
    That's never good. I'll be watching.
  • ChrisBotChrisBot August 2016
    Alright so now to get into a little more detail! 

    The magnet that I was implanting is a DangerousThings m31 that I purchased from @trybalWolf a few months back. I am not going to go into all of the prep simply because there wasn't anything special about it. I used Chlorhexidine to sterilized to the best of my ability, and made sure everything was ship-shape. 

    Now the good stuff!

    A few months back I had actually purchased normal neodymium magnents for another project, and they happened to be extremely close to the dimensions of the m31. I used these to experiment with the 3d printed injector that you can see in the post above. While I was testing I was happy to see that the magnet fit nicely within the needle, as it had an acceptable amount of space surrounding it. I used a 6g needle that had an inner diameter of 3.7mm. It wasn't optimal, but it was the closest I could get. Regardless, while I was testing it, the results seemed promising. The plunger would push the magnet out to the very tip of the needle.




    image

    image






    However, an issue arose when I was beginning the procedure. 

    With everything sterilized, I loaded the m31 into the end of the injector, and tried to plunge it. The plunger went right over the magnet as it flipped along it's axis within the needle. Basically, this meant that I couldn't actually inject it, which was a total bummer. I simply attribute this to a slight design flaw within the injector design, and will consider making a revision to @aviin's original design. A little flange on the end of the plunger would probably have made things work a little better. (In retrospect, I also attribute this failure to the fact that the magnets I was experimenting with were actually a few tenths of a millimeter thicker!) 

    So with actual injection out of the picture I decided that I could still make ample use of the needle. Basically what I ended up doing was using the piercing needle to make a pocket for the magnet. This went very well!

    As someone who previously tried (and failed) with the scalpel method, using the needle seemed like a walk in the park! 

    At first the needle went in at a snail's pace, as not to accidentally hurt myself, which should go without saying. I started a little further towards the tip of my finger than one would normally when making the slice with the scalpel method. This was to account for the frankly massive length of the needle. (not going to lie, that sucker is huge and scary)

    I continued to work the needle slowly into the skin until I felt the ever apparent give of the needle (finally) breaking through the dermis. At this point I knew that I shouldn't really go much deeper at the risk of damaging the tissue and nerves underneath. I then lessened my angle of attack, and extended the pocket a tad more for good measure. With that, I removed the needle and popped in the magnet. I was then able to push the magnet deep into the pocket with the 3d printed plunger from the injector (so I guess it wasn't useless after all!).




    Aftermath and Aftercare and Concerns:

    One of the major concerns that I have with this method, is that the needle doesn't really leave any skin suitable for suturing. As it slides in it basically fillets the skin, leaving an elongated flap that is pretty much useless. In this situation, Dermabond may actually have been preferable to a suture. As I didn't not have any on hand, I elected to simply bandage the wound after getting cleaned up and applying triple anti-bact. 

    Another concern that I have it just how long this needle is. The angle of attack is very shallow meaning that you will have a pretty decent chunk of finger skin that is getting filleted. I only was able to insert the needle until about half way up the slopped opening of the needle. If I had attempted to go deeper my finger skin would have been sliced to shreds. Obviously this doesn't mean that you couldn't still inject it, it would just have been a little cleaner if the slope of the needle wasn't so gradual. I'm having a bit of a hard time describing it to be honest. Hopefully the image will clarify (The morning after)

    image
  • JohnDoeJohnDoe August 2016
    That's sad to hear, I gather that the only issue was that the plunger was not wide enough no? That area looks really black and blue do you think that the procedure was to traumatic? Please post up dates on how well that heals!!

    Sincerely,
    John Doe
  • ChrisBotChrisBot August 2016
    Update time!

    About 3 days into the healing process, this is how things are healing up!

    The very tip of the skin flap finally dried up and died, so I clipped it off. You can see a touch of red scab / new skin, as well as the dead skin surrounding wound. I am a tad disappointed that so much of the skin died, but I didnt believe it would survive. As for pain, it is almost non existant. It is still a bit tender to the touch but not painful. There is no fluid build up and little, to no noticeable swelling at this point.

    @JohnDoe, the site surrounding the wound doesn't seem to be all that traumatized in the real world. I think the colorization might just be a result of the image. And yes, the plunger was the problem. I just design my own injector from the ground up next time. I'm very eager to try again once magnets become more readily available!!

    For the most part I have been keeping a bandaid on it for some extra mechanical protection, and have been apply antibact regularly (even though it may not even be necessary now).

    Also, I will be out of town this week so I will only be on mobile, which means no embedded pictures :(

    https://goo.gl/xKqpi8
  • JohnDoeJohnDoe August 2016
    Thanks for the update!!
  • ChrisBotChrisBot August 2016
    12 days after implantation and heres how we're doing so far!

    https://ibin.co/2t9Q4R83ilo6.jpg

    I have to admit, I have not really treated this implant with love! Over the last few days it has definetly been through its far share of bumps and knocks. A few of them have been quite painful, and left a lingering sensation for 5-10 minutes afterward. To be honest it was actually quite worrying!


    Regardless, it looks like everything is healing very well! There is no pain when probing the magnet and the incision is completely sealed. As you can (hopefully) see on the picture, the outline of the wound is still present, but has new pink flesh growing in around it. The swelling has also subsided considerabley, almost to the point of nonexsistance. Discoloration is also at a minimum with no apparent trains trauma or bruising.

    The only thing that is slightly concerning is that when removing the liquid bandage, the top layer of the underlying skin was also able to come off in relatively large pieces. I simply peeled it away. I'm not too worried however, I struggle year round with my fingers peeling constantly. I attribute this to my strange skin and messed up fingers :D
  • NLmaxNLmax August 2016
    I'm clearly No professional but if it was my finger i wouldnt at all by the look of it. Can't say anything about the feeling as i havent had a magnet yet
  • TheDiabeticGMTheDiabeticGM August 2016
    Hmmmmmm.  From the little I have seen on rejection I know that my hypochondriac of a brain would start screaming that it looks like it is in the early stages of rejection, especially after having treated it so rough since installation, but then I would tell myself to shut up and wait to see what happens.  Thank you for the updates, seeing things as they progress is much appreciated and quite helpful! : 3
  • Dragon5Dragon5 August 2016
    @TheDiabeticGM  i have found that the most important thing during healing post-procedure, is that you don't worry. just assume it will heal fine. and that does SO much to help with the healing. it is so crazy how just your mental status affects how the body reacts... but it is true...
  • ZerbulaZerbula August 2016
    ^ Seconded. 

    Stress feedback is detrimental to your body.

    *Has ulcerative colitis onset from high-stress upbringing, life, and general anxiety


    Letting your body be relaxed and calm is one of the more beneficial ways to let yourself recover. ^^

    Pain tells you to not do something again, or something is wrong. In many cases, adjusting so the pain is reduced and you are more comforted/relaxed is also the best position for your body to be in to heal. There's many associations with mind and body.^^

    But still follow all the aftercare to the letter. In my exposure, that looks pretty good. :D


  • ChrisBotChrisBot September 2016
    17 days after implantation and things are looking a bit sketchy...

    https://ibin.co/2tiSd55FLgGN.jpg

    Since the last update it appears that the site of the implant has swelled. The tissue itself does not appear to be inflammed, but filled with fluid. The skin appears to be rather thin/fragile as you can see from the creases in the picture. This is not to say that I am worried about the skin rupturing, it just looks rather unpleasant. The skin is almost completely smooth and lacks any ridges that are akin to a normal fingner print.

    On the bright side, the original incision site has healed almost completely scarlessly! I'm very happy with how it healed! I do attribute this to using the needle rather than a scalpel.

    This swelling started a few days after my last update and i will wait a few more days to see how things develope. I have also purchased some lancets if things should come to that... For now i am keeping pressure on it with a tight bandage on hope that will slowly force the fluid out.

    @JohnDoe:

    The size of the needle was pretty scary. The thing was around 4.2mm in diameter and I had to stick it into my finger. It wasnt the length of it or anything, it was just a bit menacing. Like i said before, of i could have changed anything about the needle it would have been the angle of the actual sharpened part(?). That way the amount of filleted skin would have drasticly reduced.

    (sorry for unclear explanation, grammar and spelling mistakes. I'm awful at typing on a phone)
  • JohnDoeJohnDoe September 2016
    That seems like the early stages of rejection....
  • ZerbulaZerbula September 2016
    IMO, lance it and see what comes out. keep it shielded from mechanical stress/agitation/damage, too. :s

    Clear or white might be saveable... If you get green, grey, black, etc... Get it out! D:>
  • ChrisBotChrisBot September 2016
    Lanced. There was some white-ish yellow-ish puss that came out immediately. That was the worst of it, but i made sure to push as much as i could out. After the initial flow it was mostly blood and tendrils of it. I lanced it in two other places and then it was just blood and clear fluid.

    Im really hoping i can salvage this. I've started putting antibact on it once again as well. I will keep everyone updated.
  • ZerbulaZerbula September 2016
    Keep it drained and very clean; it sounds possible it will make it! :D

    And don't let it get bumped. >~<

    If it keeps filling with pus, you're body is fighting something. V_v
  • ChrisBotChrisBot September 2016
    About 3 weeks after implantation (Day 24). The skin has stopped peeling and is returning to its normal texture. Everything is looking really nice since I lanced it. The skin is still a bit purple from the healing. Other than that, my only real concern is that the magnet seems pretty close to the surface of the skin. I can feel it fairly easily through my skin, and there is a considerable bump. I have a feeling that it might grow out eventually... Thoughts?


    https://ibin.co/2uUnE5P70nC8.jpg
    https://ibin.co/2uUpnd61SG6H.jpg
    https://ibin.co/2uVuszxfucKc.jpg

  • ZerbulaZerbula September 2016
    It may be too shallow...

    Did you make sure in your procedure to completely penetrate and go underneath ALL layers of the dermis, into the actual finger meats? D:>

    Still worth keeping in though. If it starts working its way out, just remove it. If it stays, encourage it to stay. ^^
  • ChrisBotChrisBot September 2016
    I am fairly certain that i made sure to go underneath all the layers. I felt the telltale "give" of the needle once it finally broke through the skin. However I really have no way to tell for sure. I am thinking the small infection i had may have pushed the magnet out from under the dermis, and then healed into its current position.

    Maybe i will get lucky and skin will slowly heal over it, but i am pretty sure that's not how these things work....

    Do people normally have a bump?
  • ZerbulaZerbula September 2016
    Well... It varies. It's certainly not impossible. ^^'

    1mm is pretty small. but if you have thinner skin and it's shallow, there might be a little bump. It's within the realm of 'makes sense'. 
  • ChrisBotChrisBot September 2016
    Regardless it is still quite fun to play with. This may also be a result of using the needle. Even though though the very tip may have penetrated the dermis, the pocket that it created was probably shaped like a "V." This may have made it more prone to migration before it could be healed in place.
  • glimsglims September 2016
    That bump is actually fairly normal. It varies from person to person depending on you morphology. 
  • ChrisBotChrisBot October 2016
    2 month update!

    Things have gotten a bit...weird. See for yourself.
    image

    Now I don't really think that this is a result of the procedure or anything. In other words, if I had implanted it with the traditional scalpel method I think that the same outcome probably would have occurred. This doesn't really alarm me in any way as the skin on my fingers always exhibits some very strange behavior, mostly in the colder months of the year. 

    Mostly this involved the skin on the pads of my fingers peeling off in sheets, sometimes to the point where the skin underneath is so new that it constantly stings! Other times some of my fingers may look pruney or wrinkly like in the picture. 

    Other than that though everything has healed very well! There is some slight discoloration around the magnet, almost like slight bruising, but there is no pain. Due to the unique "U" shape of the scar it is probably a bit more noticeable than a scar created by a slice, however it is hardly anything to be concerned about.

    Any thoughts?
  • pibpib October 2016
    Looks awfully similar to my m31, scalpel installed a year and a half ago. I think this may be a success story.
  • c00p3rc00p3r October 2016
    isn't there a danger of damaging the coating on the magnet during implantation if it scrapes along the needle towards the body?
  • JohnDoeJohnDoe October 2016
    That's what's being tested....

    That looks almost like it didn't get in straight to me and is higher on one side then the other.
  • ChrisBotChrisBot October 2016
    @JohnDoe, I never actually noticed that. It doesn't really seem like an issue though. The perspective of the image makes it look a bit wonky, but it is a tad higher on one side nonetheless.

    @c00p3r, The funny thing is, I actually had to pull the magnet back out of my finger while I was testing the size of the pocket. I had to pull it back out with some forceps before making the pocket deeper. So not only did it survive the trip through the needle, but also being grabbed relatively roughly and fished back out.


    The level of pruniness is also varying to a certain degree. As of now it is much less noticeable. 
  • JohnDoeJohnDoe October 2016
    @chrisbot
    It also to me looks a bit closer to the side of the finger then the side of the pad where you put it in. Like its migrating to the top of your finger. Glad to hear this is going so well!
  • ChrisBotChrisBot October 2016
    @JohnDoe, I think I consider this a success! I don't think it migrated too much actually. I tried to keep it away from the pad of my finger a little more than usual so that it didn't interfere with my grabing of things. (Just so you know, that large crease in the picture above isn't the scar.)

    Also, I plan to soon test out this injection method again. I have the magnet, and just need to print a refined injector design. However, I am unsure where to put this one. It's is another m31, and I would like to keep it in my left hand. 

    Any suggestions for locations?
  • JohnDoeJohnDoe October 2016
    I would try the pinky or the thumb.... I also believe that there is a place along the wrist you could try.
  • BenbeezyBenbeezy October 2016
    I have done it both ways and TBH the blade hurts and scars less. It's less nice an pretty but it's the better way to go.
  • JohnDoeJohnDoe October 2016
    Why do you say that?

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