Becoming Insensitivite to Pain?
  • opiopi July 2016
    anyone interested in acquiring the disorder of not feeling pain, ever?

    ...Like the people who have CIP (Congenital Insensitivity to Pain) whose sensations are all intact except pain.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congenital_insensitivity_to_pain

    Let's share ideas. I want to know different ways you can become this (or close), either long-term or permanently :D
  • PrisPris July 2016
    Sure. Particularly the dentist. Pain is like a warning system that something is wrong though.
  • autumnautumn July 2016
    It would be really neat to have the ability to toggle pain on and off, but if it were permanently off you would have some serious issues.

    I'm reminded of Robert Wadlow (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Wadlow), one of the tallest people ever to live. He ultimately died not due to system failure from his giantism, but from an infected blister on his foot that he couldn't feel.

    Tl;dr if you could never feel pain, there could be a serious medical issue you would ignore.
  • opiopi July 2016
    Yea that's true. If it's permanent then it will probably cause serious problems!
    So I guess this is for people who don't mind serious problems :P
  • As @Pris implied dentists use novacaine to stop pain for a short amount of time.
  • JohnDoeJohnDoe July 2016
    I agree that this may not be the best mod to do, a good way to examine the effect to some degree would be to take some lidocaine gel and put it on your finger then see how your day goes.

    Edit:
    Not to piss on your idea, but I do feel that should be one of the first things you do before starting to really spending money on this.
  • CassoxCassox July 2016
    Agreed. Terrible terrible idea, but it would be a fun as hell as a project. You'd probably end up making a the kamakazi soldierb of the future recipe. I'll get involved if you do get serious.
  • DirectorXDirectorX July 2016
    Hmm. I wonder if would be more ko resistant if I were to inject Resiniferatoxin into my jaw? I imagine this experience would really suck for a second, but then maybe it would go away? Like a spicy lidocaine? 
  • UmutofUmutof July 2016
    mmhhmm, this reminds me of a movie i saw about a girl with this disorder and she hated it. Every time she fell over or bumped herself etc she would have to go to the doctors and get herself checked out as she had no way of gauging the damage on her body... But then again who doesn't hate pain? really have to weigh the pros and cons up on this one.
  • CassoxCassox July 2016
    The medical condition is called Congenital Anesthesia. It's pretty fucked up. Apparently teething babies chew out their own tongues and eat their cheeks because they don't know any better.

    It might be better to pursue some kind of trigger for hypoalgesia. You'd still feel pain.. but not all that much.
  • opiopi July 2016
    true, trigger for hypoalgesia would be better :)

    Some of the congenitally-pain-insensitive people are pain-insensitve because they have a constant high level production of internal opioid, so ideally if a normal person can get 75% of that... then he/she achieves constant hypoalgesia, I guess!

    There are also people who got certain kinds of brain damage, and they lose the ability to feel discomfort from pain... So they recognize pain, but they are not bothered by it. I can't imagine how that feels!

    @directorx I'm totally curious what would happen if I put Resiniferatoxin in my jaw or wherever, too! Just to warn you I think this stuff is beyond painful, though. I think it's supposed to be 37 times as hot as Capsaicin, with the "hot sauce heat" level off the chart. There's the prescription Capsaicin patch for localized pain, and patients have to be anesthesized before using it. And that's only Capsaicin... Anyway for both Capsaicin and Resiniferatoxin the idea is to desensitize after sensitize, so yes your inflammatory-pain nerves will be destroyed either temporarily or permanently (I read that if you apply it locally, it would be temporary (months), and if inject into your spine, it will be permanent... which sounds weird and I'm still trying to figure out why)
  • JohnDoeJohnDoe July 2016
    A better way to achieve a similar effect would be to eliminate fear.... There are drugs to do just that I believe, I think it would be a amazing feeling!! On a super bike, speaking of which really could have a practical purpose. A lot of things go wrong due to panicking no fear, no panicking....

    Sincerely,
    John Doe
  • UmutofUmutof July 2016
    But fear also stops you from doing some pretty stupid shit. I feel more would go wrong if we didn't have fear then if we did.
  • JohnDoeJohnDoe July 2016
    That assumes you have the inability to turn it on and off. I could see the issue of people having to use reason over instinct, but if the two I would rather have no fear....
  • JordygordyJordygordy July 2016
    what about a concious sedation, you feel the pain but ketamine makes your mind disaasociate from it. i've only seen it used once during my ER rotation, the doctors gave it to a five year old to set his broken arm. what really pissed me off though was when i broke my arm and had to have it set the only thing they gave me was a big ball of gauze and told me to bite down. 
  • JordygordyJordygordy July 2016
    also, i would only reccomend this if there was some sort of on/off switch. pain is a good thing, lets you know how much damage you've received. 
    i did get a tattoo yesterday and i would have loved to have been able to shut off the pain. 
  • JohnDoeJohnDoe July 2016
    They have lido gel for that.... I will read more into concious sedation.
  • I've seen people on that you don't want that for long. I've had people fall over railings and just collapse to the ground for no reason while on it.
  • JordygordyJordygordy July 2016
    hmmm. maybe theres some compund we could try to replicate that has the same mode of action as ketamine but not as strong. if i punch something/someone i want to be able to tell if i just hit them reall hard or if i broke my hand on their face lol 
  • JordygordyJordygordy July 2016
    maybe ketamine isn't the best. i forgot it causes amnesia as well. 

  • eggiteggit July 2016
    I have a teeny bit of experience with this, I don't think its a good idea for the safety reasons other people have mentioned. Minor or Major injuries could easily go unnoticed.

    I've been riding BMX all my life, and over the years my shins have taken massive abuse from sharp pedals smashing into them. The nerves in my shins are pretty much dead now. Sometimes I will get a new pedal bite opening up my shin with a good 2"+ gash and the only way I know is when my socks feel wet. I've stitched a few of these on my own with no anesthetic.The skin doesn't really feel pain there anymore, sometimes a hard enough impact will jar the bone and I can feel it there.

    @opi - "they recognize pain, but they are not bothered by it. I can't imagine how that feels!"
    No brain injury, but I feel this way a lot. Its maybe a mind over matter thing, or just decades of constant injury but pain is very manageable for me. I recently had a knee surgery and stopped taking my pain Meds the day after. I still felt the pain, and my brain still told me something was wrong and wouldn't let me walk on the knee, but the pain wasn't really an issue. Sudden acute pains still catch me off guard, but constant prolonged pain is fairly easy to put behind me, and the feeling from minor injuries is even somewhat enjoyable.

    Its an interesting idea, but I would definitely be safe about it. Diabetics often have numb feet and suffer from severe blisters because of it. When your brain isn't telling you to limp and avoid that blister it just keeps getting worse. In extreme cases an internal injury or illness could cause major problems like bleeding out, even though you appear fine from the outside.
  • JohnDoeJohnDoe July 2016
    @meanderpaul
    Lido gel? I didn't know you could get high off of it.
  • @johndoe yes you snort it.

    The special k is just a bad idea***
  • JohnDoeJohnDoe July 2016
    This stuff?
    https://www.amazon.com/TOPICAINE-Lidocaine-Anesthetic-Piercing-SHIPPING/dp/B001CY9XW4
    What you described should more like a opiate enduced high, also maybe cassox can answer this better. But isn't lido gel recommended for installing a magnet?

    Sincerely,
    John Doe
  • The injection is recommended the gel is only topical so inside will hurt still.
    You could get oragel which has lidocaine in it and rub it on you.
  • eggiteggit July 2016
    Not really sure on the reason why, but I still have the sensation of touch in my shins, just so sensation of pain. Maybe deep tissue vs skin surface? Its definitely not the same numb sensation that lidocaine or novacaine would give.

    I can't imagine that being completely numb across your full body would be enjoyable. Lidocaine is also very temporary and would have to be applied almost constantly to achieve "the disorder of not feeling pain"
  • JordygordyJordygordy July 2016
    @meanderpaul @johndoe 

    you can't get high off of lidogel, i give it all the time in the hospital, when I do a bronchoscopy we have patients snort it like they're doing a line of white lightening, they don't get high though, it just numbs their nostrils so they don't get irritated when I shove gigantic camera down their nose into their lungs. 
  • @jordygordy it was a joke :)
    I said it because it would be hilarious if some one did try. It's so sad jokes are lost in typing....
  • JordygordyJordygordy July 2016
    i had a feeling, but when you work with the public as much as i do, its hard to tell when someone is joking, or is seriously stupid. I'm always trying to combat the never ending onslaught of medical misinformation. 
  • Yea I was in a joking mood that day I think I posted 3 different things in a joking manner. I'm with you only with wildlife I deal with the stupid " I know more then you you pot smoking high schooler!" (I neither smoke nor am in HS for over 10 years)
  • JordygordyJordygordy July 2016
    haha pot smokers are't even that stupid unless they burned themselves out. though usually they have to do more then smoke pot to do that.

     I'm in Los Angeles so i deal with all the dumb anti-GMO, organic, "won't put chemicals in my body" and "dihydrogen monoxide is extremely dangerous", anti vaccine girls who still slam rails of cocaine on the weekend at music festivals and clubs.
     
    so handling everyone and everything with kid gloves becomes an automatic response for me.
  • ZerbulaZerbula July 2016
    @Jordygordy I work with chainsaws as a certified technician for a living... Please don't even get me started. It's my job to teach new people how to properly use them, 'experts' how to properly use them, and repair them within factory tolerances. X_x

    Nobody takes a 21 year old seriously though. :c
  • JohnDoeJohnDoe July 2016
    @Jordygordy
    I had a guy ask me if a model rocket engine was a blunt today. I almost said yes....
  • Hahaha that's amazing!
  • ZerbulaZerbula July 2016
    What size motor? Morbid curiosity of just how bad it would have been. >0>
  • JordygordyJordygordy July 2016
    the human gene pool needs some chlorine in it, and thats all i have to say about that. 
  • JohnDoeJohnDoe July 2016
    VX would work better....
  • IvoTheSquireIvoTheSquire August 2016
    On the topic of turning pain on and off, we actually do have a natural way of doing it (look up "descending pain control pathway" and "opiates"). That would be a direction to think about (activation of the descending pain-control pathway electronically anyone?).

    The "electrical stimulation produces analgesia" bit from here looks interesting: http://neuroscience.uth.tmc.edu/s2/chapter08.html
  • MeanderpaulMeanderpaul August 2016
    There is a thread where a person is working on making what you are talking about @ivothesquire
  • RiddikRiddik August 2016
    Pris, you are right!
  • opiopi August 2016
    @ivothesquire This seems like a temporary pain control approach, like the effect would wear off on its own? Can it be permanent?
  • Wolfcat_XWolfcat_X August 2016
    @opi Have you thought about testing this on the small-scale to start with, for instance self-administering a nerve block with saline to, say, deaden your foot for a day...?

    Maybe you could try out small regions first rather than attempt something systemic / body-wide to start with.

    Honestly I've been thinking a lot about your project in the few days since I first read your post and I think this could have some incredible applications, particularly if you can find a way to keep sensation but remove pain.
  • IvoTheSquireIvoTheSquire August 2016
    @opi As long as the descending inhibitory pathway stays on it's not going to wear off, especially if we use the electrical approach since neurons can't exactly adapt to electric fields. It's as likely to wear off as any other descending pathways (it would be disastrous if that happens: our brains are constantly inhibiting our spinal cord every moment every day: we'd all go stiff like a paraplegic if any one of them "wears off").

    And I thought we are after methods that can be turned on and off?
  • ThermalWinterThermalWinter August 2016
    This is a fascinating idea. Once we get proper evidence and biological reasoning as to why it would work without damaging the surface tissue, nerves, spinal pathways, and possibly even estimate the effect it would have on the brains neurons than I would be happy to give it a test myself and possibly do tests myself.

    The problem with chemical ways of doing it is that it WILL wear off. No way around it. The only thing you could do is block the nerves from responding, relaying, or in general understanding the sensation of pain, but hopefully still recognize and relay other sensations such as impact, vibration, etc. and what would be even better (imo) is to just temporarily lessen the pain felt. For instance, by overloading your brains neural receptors with special 'happy' or useless 'commands' for short, the pain sensation will be incredibly blocked/felt less. This is seen in drugs such as opiates, and even ibuprofen. That is why people smoke a blunt of medical marijuana to relieve pain, and seizures. Because if the way seizures are triggered, the very same thing that stops/prohibits the pain also blocks the seizures.

    I got a little carried away there, but hopefully you guys thought that was interesting.
    As it just so happens, that was actually my first post on this website. And as a clarification, I am no doctor or scholar. I am a kid in high school who has been interested in this very kind of thing for many years, and has been researching the human anatomy since I was a very little kid. If you want to argue with the prospects I have covered here, I certainly won't act like I know more than you, because chances are you are considerably older than I am.
  • opiopi August 2016
    @ivothesquire oh ok, so is this like you apply the electrical stimulation, pain turns off, and you can go for a few years or whatever being pain-INsensitive, and when you feel like becoming pain-Sensitive again, you go get another electrical stimulation and voila? That would be pretty cool ;)
    And Yup an on-and-off switch would definitely be better. But I thought it would be harder to find than a just-off-forever switch, so I'm (we're?) looking for either one :)

    @meanderpaul do you know where the thread is about someone building this pain pathway...thing?
  • MeanderpaulMeanderpaul August 2016
    http://forum.biohack.me/discussion/1371

    This is the thread about it. I'm not sure the progress of the project but it has some useful information in it.
  • IvoTheSquireIvoTheSquire August 2016
    @Meanderpaul A skim read of that thread tells me that is very different to what I was talking about. I'm talking about stimulating an pathway that inhibits pain, not inhibiting an entire nerve completely by running a current through.

    @opi Close, but rather as long as the stimulators current stays on, the inhibitory pathway keeps inhibiting the pain pathway. Not turning it on and off an the effect stays for a while: the effect stays as long as it is on. This is different from drugs: drug receptors can regenerate, or the drug can get knocked off, etc, which is why opiates (morphine) fades. Electric stimulus is going to be there as long as it is on.
  • MeanderpaulMeanderpaul August 2016
    It's not completely different the only difference you have is scale but sorry for the side track if you don't think it's of use.
  • Dr_AllcomeDr_Allcome August 2016
    I know this might be a side track but has anyone considered looking at leaving the pain receptors to function and adjusting the perception of pain instead?

    I understand people with chronic pain can use meditation to help block the pain - a practice in neuroscience known as cognitive self-regulation. I've also read studies that show this is actually uses specific pathways within the brain.

    So my question is could tdcs be used to help train the brain to give people a higher pain threshold at will? Something that rather than needing a top up every so often could potentially get stronger through regular use and would not impede the subjects ability to feel pain that was medically important.

    Also this approach could be used on a wider range of types of pain and physical discomfort including extreme exhaustion, pushing "past the wall" for instance when exercising.

  • ZerbulaZerbula August 2016
    I like this idea much more, in terms of integration and improvement of the human body, condition, and situation. ^^
  • TheGreyKnightTheGreyKnight August 2016
    Be careful using DC electricity for long periods of time or frequently in a short span of time. It can cause chemical imbalances because it breaks down water and pulls ions around.

    As far as TDCS, according to this link, the dorsal posterior insula might be your best target. It supposedly controls how much something hurts. It looks to be about halfway back from the front of the brain, a bit under half way up from the bottom, and possibly on the left side.

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