Brainstorming a possible injector for NFC implants, and maybe other implants as well
  • IldunnamIldunnam June 2016

    I posted this originally in another thread, but I thought I'd start a new one here for input on my idea for an injector for NFC implants.

    http://i.imgur.com/D0sDt9g.jpg

    Basically, it consists of a small sleeve, slightly larger than the NFC itself. Connected to this is a plunger tube and plunger. Slide the implant into the sleeve, then slide the sleeve itself into the pocket created under your skin. The sleeve is narrower at the tip than at the base, so it should slide into the pocket fairly easily. I figure making it out on a 3d printer, it can be tweaked to make it strong enough to not break, but thin enough to fit under the skin without having to make the incision too large. Once in place, instead of injecting like you normally would, you use the plunger to hold the implant in place while you slowly pull the sleeve out. The end of the plunger is a small knob that pushes the implant out of the sleeve, holding it in place in the pocket while you pull the sleeve out. Voila, you're done, and the implant should be right where you want it, without curling up or anything of that nature. Granted, this is all still hypothetical, so any and all input is greatly appreciated. I already have ideas for making it a one time use, or making one that can be taken apart and sterilized for reuse. And it could also be modifiable, to be used for a variety of different sized implants, just by swapping out the sleeves.

    edit*- I attempted to tool around a bit in openscad, trying to make a model of what I'm trying for.. I've never used any CAD program, so I probably over complicated it, but here's the coding I used to try to make the model..

    polyhedron(points=[[0,0,0], [4,0,0], [4,3,0], [0,3,0], [0,3,.25], [4,3,.25]], faces=[[0,1,2,3],[5,4,3,2],[0,4,5,1],[0,3,4],[5,2,1]]);
    polyhedron(points=[[0,0,-.125], [4,0,-.125], [4,3,-.125], [0,3,-.125], [0,3,-.375], [4,3,-.375]], faces=[[0,1,2,3],[5,4,3,2],[0,4,5,1],[0,3,4],[5,2,1]]);
    polyhedron(points=[[0,0,0], [0,3,.25], [0,3,-.375], [0,0,-.125]], faces=[[0,1,2,3]]);
    polyhedron(points=[[4,0,0], [4,3,.25], [4,3,-.125], [4,0,-.125]], faces=[[0,1,2,3]]);
    rotate(a=270, v=[1,0,0])
    translate([2,0,3])
    cylinder(h=4,r=.4);
    rotate(a=270, v=[1,0,0])
    translate([2,0,3])
    cylinder(h=6,r=.2);

  • ZerbulaZerbula June 2016
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you might simply be describing the injectors already used about 99% of the time... Unless I'm misreading some thing. #_#
  • CitrusBoltCitrusBolt June 2016
    @Zerbula I think it is supposed to pull the device out of the incision around the implant instead of pushing the implant in. It's kind of the opposite of the standard injectors.
  • IldunnamIldunnam June 2016
    That's what I was going for, inserting the whole device then pulling it out while the plunger holds the implant in place. Now that my brain has slowed down and I'm able to stop and think.... It's kind of redundant.. Oh well.
  • ZerbulaZerbula June 2016
    Well when we do use the injectors, following the ideal procedure, ideally the injector needle is inserted and pulled out while depressing the plunger, in the exact same style as mentioned, is it not?


    What would be beautiful is to modify an injector to keep the plunger completely stationary while pulling the needle around it backwards... I shall out of interest attempt to draw prototypes... You have full credit, this is a good idea. ^^



    Trust me, I know this seems exactly like what you said. It is. I kinda needed to figure it out, my mind is being stupid... x-x

    And @CelticDog, you have been tagged.
  • IldunnamIldunnam June 2016

    I wasn't necessarily talking about with a needle though. Like you mentioned in Avvin's thread about the NFC implant video, I was thinking more a thin, flat sleeve that would hold the implant flat inside of it. You could put ruler markings on the top side of the sleeve, insert the whole sleeve into the incision to make sure it's the right depth, then push on the plunger to hold the implant in place, flat and in the pocket, while you retract the entire sleeve around it. No chance for the implant to move or curl or anything like that.


    As for an injector that has the plunger not moving at all, I had an idea for that. Make an injector that has the plunger one solid piece, connected to the cylinder of the syringe by 2 small bars, top and bottom. Then have a sleeve that slides between the outer cylinder and the plunger, with 2 parallel slits, one on either side, so that it will slide down around the plunger around the bars connecting it to the outer cylinder. The bottom of the sleeve will slot into a round piece that is holding the needle. You push the sleeve all the way down, and give it a slight twist to lock it into place using the bars that connect the plunger to the outer shell, and load your implant. Then once you have pierced the body and have the needle in place, you twist the outer shell(or the sleeve if you don't mind the needle turning very slightly in the pocket), then pull the sleeve out, which pulls the needle out, but the plunger is staying in place, pushing the implant out and into the pocket.

    It's way easier to explain with visuals, and I'm learning to use openscad, but I'm not good enough to try to make this prototype yet, but I did draw one up and I'll post the link to it.

    http://i.imgur.com/MEvImpQ.jpg

  • ZerbulaZerbula June 2016
    The main issue with this and similar ideas I was running across was the ease of use one handed. Most chips will be going into a hand, it will need to be used solo if it's being done on ones self. >~<<br />
    This does work though, my own idea involved a idea like such... someday I'll learn to upload pictures to this site. :v
  • IldunnamIldunnam June 2016
    Now what if we added a thumb loop to the sleeve that connects to the needle, and little flaps or loops to the outer cylinder. You could use the flaps to make the slight twist that locks/unlocks the needle and sleeve, and then use the thumb loop to pull the needle/sleeve back out of the incision, still keeping the plunger in place and not moving.. I think that would make it easily done with just one hand..

    https://imgur.com/u8wFOcp

    I just upload to imgur, and then copy and paste the link.
  • ZerbulaZerbula June 2016
    We are beginning to grow a working idea ^^

    Are you sure the thumbs pull is enough to remove am inserted heavy gauge needle?
  • IldunnamIldunnam June 2016
    I'm not sure if it will be or not.. I'm going to have to try to mock up something, and find a way to test it, preferably without punching a bunch of random holes in my body. If I had access to a 3d printer, it would be great, but that's not currently an option.
  • BenbeezyBenbeezy June 2016
    @lldunnam if you need anything printed let me know and I can print it for you
  • IldunnamIldunnam June 2016
    @benbeezy Sorry it's taken me a few to get back to ya, been sick and my 2 girls were both sick, so it' been a fun few days. I should have something for you to print hopefully by this weekend. As I keep trying to draw everything up, I keep revising the plans before I even get them done. Thanks again for volunteering, I have no idea how we'd get a prototype built without the assist.
  • ZerbulaZerbula June 2016
    Question @benbeezy!

    If a mechanism was 3d printed in a fashion making it more like assembling a tool than just a disposable one time use, is sterilization of plastic components anything worth wasting time over?

    Is it worth the time of developing a multi use device that has moving parts, is what I mean. Not at all to frown on the idea, but a one time use injector does still do the job to a degree. :s
  • ChrisBotChrisBot June 2016
    @Zerbula. I also own a 3D printer and honestly the uses between procedures would be so few and far between that you probably would have no reason to keep them around. Especially when you can just print of another one in a few hours at the most.


  • JohnDoeJohnDoe June 2016
    How much would that cost though? Wouldn't it be cheaper to just by one?
  • Dr_AllcomeDr_Allcome June 2016
    3d printing costs are actually pretty low $30/kilo plastic filament or $30/10 Kilos for the pellets if you make/recycle your own filament.
  • ZerbulaZerbula June 2016
    @ChrisBot

    In a situation where say, for my personal example, you were going to be preforming 4 implant procedures with the same tool and only desired to obtain a single tool, and in a similar situation whereas one did not own a 3D printer. 

    I want one, but current situation is making it,,, Not in my immediate short term goals. >~<

    I do understand the ease of duplication when it comes to frequency of use, but what about situations where it's a designed tool, but the user doesn't have an ability to produce duplicates?
  • BenbeezyBenbeezy July 2016
    @Zerbula sorry for the long time with no reply, but if you printed the thing out of ABS it would print at about 230c thus I don't think you need to worry to much about anything making it threw that process. But you should be able to will clean it just fine. You would never be touching the inside part that touches the implant. if you want you could pull the part off of the print bed with gloves already on and go straight from the print bed to implanting with no opportunity for anything to get 'dirty'.

    The cost for a single injector would be a few cents, a kilo being $30 and you could print close to a hundred out of that much plastic.
  • Dr_AllcomeDr_Allcome July 2016
    While the plastic itself would be upwards of 210 degrees for much longer than needed to sterilize it I would suggest treating the print bed before printing to prevent any possible transfer.

    Also, even small prints can take a while so the plastic is cooled and left exposed to the air and dust for some time while the rest of the item is printing - for this reason you may want to be careful about where you are printing and perhaps dust cover the printer during the print.

    It's minor things but worth taking the extra effort.
  • ZerbulaZerbula July 2016
    Is the plastic a reasonably resterilizable surface, though?

    Like say... For sake of better example, imagine if we could 3D print a functioning scalpel that works beautifully, made out of plastic... Somehow... I use it once, then I can sterilize it and use it again on someone else? Or is the nature of plastics not as clean.

    I know glass and metals tend to be less porous than plastics, I think... But I think you understand what I'm meaning X_x I hope.
  • Dr_AllcomeDr_Allcome July 2016
    @Zerbula, The nature of most extrusion (FDM) 3d printing methods means very irregular surfaces (air pockets etc) so getting the item fully clean would be very tricky, plus the nature of the material is that it looses integrity at high temperatures, not just the material itself but also the layer adhesion. Even moderate heat and water (or other chemical) may weaken the print.

    It would depend on the model as well as how hot, for how long, and in what medium.

    I think a scalpel would be a problem but an injector might be workable.

    Great article [LINK] that someone posted elsewhere talks about how sterile 3d printed objects are and mentions a "stovetop" method of heating to 65 centigrade and maintaining it for 30mins.


  • ZerbulaZerbula July 2016
    This is what I was thinking. Thank you @Dr_allcome ^^
  • NLmaxNLmax July 2016
    I Have alot of Experience with 3d printing and printers, i can andere alot of questions regards it. Fully sterile will be impossible, although there is a type of filament that is Safe to use as ' food safe' for like cups and plates. But you will have to autoclave it to be Safe for Medical procedures? The plastic won't be 100% "hole-free" as they get micro holes in it. And the "food safe'" filament is Made out of PLA ( if i remember correctly) which has a glasstemperature of about 80c and melts at around 170c. Far too Low for Heat treatment
  • ChrisBotChrisBot July 2016
    @NLmax, yah the food safe stuff is PLA, its starch based instead of petroleum based. It's actually biodegradable in an industrial composter which is pretty cool.

    In my opinion I would much rather have a filament that could withstand the heat and pressure of an autoclave, even if it isn't considered food safe. If I recall correctly proto-pasta.com had some high temperature filament at one point that was supposed to be very durable and resliant.

    As for the micro holes, I wonder if we could do a resin print of the part that eventually gets designed. I'm not sure if anyone has developed a resin specifcally designed to withstand heat, but it might do a little better in terms of a chemical sterilization or boiling.
  • NLmaxNLmax July 2016
    @ChrisBot , Maybe check out here : https://www.proto-pasta.com/pages/documentation Some datasheets of proto-pastas filaments. They have some really special and tough stuff.
     Although i don't really know what kinds of pressure and temperature it needs to handle.
    As for the micro holes, there could always be some kind of thin layer dipped on to it.
     Or if you use an autoclave it wouldn't be a problem as the micro holes should get cleaned aswell then??
  • ChrisBotChrisBot August 2016
    Okay, so with a quick google, it says that the temperature for an autoclave only reaches about 120C. Of course PLA melts around 175C, but obviously a part wouldn't be happy to withstand those temperatures for very long. It would start to warp and soften up.

    On proto-pasta, they sell what they are calling PC-ABS, which melts at around 280C and apparently has fanstiasic layer adhesion and rigidity. This is all opposed to normal ABS that melts at around 230C


    Again, not sure how the pressures would effect such a thing. Link for filament because I'm on mobile and can't embed. https://www.proto-pasta.com/collections/samples/products/high-temperature-pc-abs-sample
  • NLmaxNLmax August 2016
    All i can add to @ChrisBot his perfect comment is that PLA has a glasstemperature of around 70c, so 120c kills it. I Always print my Stuff with PLA . I would Love try some Different materials on my printer but i don't Have an autoclave yet
  • NLmaxNLmax August 2016
    As i can't edit my comment on my phone, I'm picking up an autoclave wednessday so i can try some PLA or Abs in there if needed, don't know what thouhh
  • ChrisBotChrisBot August 2016
    Do you have any experience with ABS? It's signicantly harder to print with. I would definitely get a sample of that stuff I linked too you if I were you.

    I've never tried to print with on my printer, but I have an all metal hotend and heated bed. I don't have anything remotely close to an enclosure though. I've got a Printrbot Simple metal with a bunch of mods, so it's not exactly like I can through a box over it, weird geometry
  • NLmaxNLmax August 2016
    Well depends on the model, I've got some ABS experience but I've given up on it quickly as most of my orders were too difficult for my Prusa i3 printer.
    So I can do some ABS prints if the model is workable for my printer,
    Try to keep the room where the printer is in warm and close all the windows and doors. Also look up ABS-juice or try the hairspray method.
    Just send me a message if you need help.

    I've also got experience with Ninja-flex , a flexible tough plastic that has a higher melting point than PLA. Perhaps that it will work aswell?? but it does depend on what you want it to do exactly.


    @ChrisBot
    I'm up to try and order some different materials and test them at the end of this week? Would you mind checking colorfabb.com for the materials you think would fit best?
    That store is near me so it will reduce the shippingcost by alot haha



  • ChrisBotChrisBot August 2016
    Sorry for the delay. I don't really have an intention of printing in ABS anytime soon simply because I don't have an reason to (and I don't want to fill my room with fumes) Thanks for the offer to help.

    I don't think Ninja-flex or Semi-flex would work very well in this case because you know... it bends... Not really meant for this sort of application. I've also got some experince with it.

    Out of everything on the colorfabb website, it looks like their HT material would be the best bet. Link They claim that it can with stand 100C without deforming, so that might be a good option. 
  • NLmaxNLmax August 2016
    @ChrisBot Not a problem ;) I'll order some HT and put in my autoclave soon, i guess the standard 2.1bar 137c would work? Or what would you suggest as autoclavesettings?
  • AerisAeris August 2016
    I have plenty of ABS to print with, just send me STL files and I can get that going.

  • ChrisBotChrisBot August 2016
    @Areis. That's the next piece of the puzzle... Did we ever actually decide on a tool? I am not sure how well a flat injector would work on something so flexible. I'm personally more in favor of the spatual, but I am a tad biased.

    @NLmax, you should pick a model with relatively complex geometery to print, so it's easier to spot any apparent deformities.
  • NLmaxNLmax August 2016
    @ChrisBot I'll look around for a model unless there is already an prototype STL?

    On the topic of costs, don't forget that a printer uses quite alot of power. I normally calculate around 30$cents an hour, but with maintenance it could be a bit more
  • ChrisBotChrisBot August 2016
    I'll see if I still have the file for the prototype spatula thing I made a while back, and will link when I get home. If not then I trust you can use your judgement when picking a model.

    And if I may ask, why do you bring up cost?
  • NLmaxNLmax August 2016
    I saw that price was discussed a while Back haha and wanted to share my Experience as printing for others . As i did it to make some money, haha. I noticed my electricity Bill flew up during that Time. :) Not trying to make money of you
  • NLmaxNLmax August 2016
    @ChrisBot , Got a test sample of filament in the mail this morning. I
    went for PETG ( it has a print temp of 230-250c), instead of the
    colorfabb one you suggested as it was cheaper. I will try that one when i get my paycheck again :).

    I'll try to print the injector you posted in the other topic today or maybe tomorrow when I get the time and autoclave it.


    EDIT:

    I've tried the PTEG and it printed fine, only after autoclaving i noticed that the heat did melt the injector.

    PTEG is not suitable although it has a melttemp of 230c


  • ChrisBotChrisBot August 2016
    @NLmax, darn! That's unfortunate. If that one melted then I feel like the other filament won't do too much better.

    I'm still curious about resin prints, but at that point it would be easier just to buy a real injector...
  • UmutofUmutof August 2016
    @NLmax did it actually melt at that temperature or did it just soften to a point were it then collapsed under its own weight. because if that is the case then you might be able to come up with a design that would have more strength under those circumstances or come up with something to support it whilst in the autoclave.
  • NLmaxNLmax August 2016
    @Umutof , well it did both. I'll upload pictures soon. But the plunger"Stick" melted and bent. but the holder melted and collapsed.

    I just saw that the glasstemp of the material is 97c, My idea now is that it needs to be 140+c as autoclaves go up to 137c ish.

  • NLmaxNLmax August 2016
    @ChrisBot Maybe that ABS will work? it has a glasstemp of 105±C? But i haven't really printed with ABS well since ever. So I'm not sure if that will work.

    @Aeris I think Z-ABS will work although i can't print it neither do i have any of it in stock, so perhaps finding someone who can print and autoclave it? Or find someone who can print and send it and i'll autoclave it

  • rolalrolal August 2016
    perhaps it would be better to print a mold for it and then fill it with a material that is more suitable for sterilization?
  • ChrisBotChrisBot August 2016
    @rolal, that's actually what I was thinking, but again, at that point it would make more since just to buy an actual injector. 
  • NLmaxNLmax August 2016
    @ChrisBot currently someone is printing one for me in Z-ABS and I spoke to him and if this didn't do it he had another filament "Z_ULTRAT " which has a glasstemp of 144C.

    Currently I'm waiting for it to be delivered to me to test the Z-ABS, I'll post results when I get it.

    If that doesn't do it I'll order a new one in Z_ULTRAT and post those results if needed


    ***UPDATE***

    The Z-ABS arrived today and went directly to the autoclave, too bad it got bent by the temperature as I was expecting . I'll order a Z_ULTRAT model if anyone is interested in those results?
  • JohnDoeJohnDoe August 2016
    I would be, thanks!!
  • NLmaxNLmax August 2016
    @JohnDoe the order has been placed so I will probably have results about the Z_ULTRAT filament this weekend
  • JohnDoeJohnDoe August 2016
    Also it there a tolerance for what's acceptable as far as warpage?
  • NLmaxNLmax August 2016
    Well All previous filaments wrapped and melted so its just a Matter of trial
  • JohnDoeJohnDoe August 2016
    Okay that makes sense....
  • NLmaxNLmax August 2016
    I'll be away for a week, but i'll test the Z_Ultrat when i get back. That'll be next monday for anyone interested

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