DIY Magnetic Implant Coating
  • swolffswolff January 2016
    Hello. I am going to be implanting a 2x1mm N35 neodymium disk magnet in my left ring finger. For my implant I purchased un-coated magnets as I do not have the money for pre-coated magnets. I am aware that neither of the coatings I am thinking of using are preferable, I just want to know if they would work and which one will work better. I was thinking either:
    1. Hot glue (the hot-melt glue sticks used with a glue gun)
    2. JB Weld (not sure if this is bio-compatible, but if it is, it'd be great because it is very strong.)
    I am hoping someone can tell me if JB Weld will work, as that is my preference. It is super durable, non-toxic when cured (don't know if that translated to bio-compatibility), and very easy to use. I have read that hot glue has been used in the past, but when I attempted to coat a magnet in it, I was unable to get a thin but complete coating. Another question I have is how deep in the finger do I need to place the magnet? Any help on these questions is greatly appreciated. Thanks!

  • AlexSmithAlexSmith January 2016
    @swolff please don't do this, if you really can't afford a magnet, then you can't afford the medical costs when this goes wrong. and trust me, it will go wrong. Hot glue will quickly break down inside the body and expose the magnet, and it should not be considered bio-compatible anyway.

    JB Weld is also not bio-compatible, based on this paper.

    Please don't do this, it will end badly, 100% guaranteed.
  • swolffswolff January 2016
    Ok. Thank you for the quick reply and information. When it comes to the money, could afford a coated magnet, but I'd rather not buy one unless there is no other way. Are there any other methods of diy bio-proofing? What about electroplated gold? Thanks again!
  • ZerbulaZerbula January 2016
    Beat to the punch X_X

    PLEASE. Please please please read the Wiki before doing anything.

    Even without reading it, i could paraphrase why that's a bad idea.

    A - Body is kinda good at breaking those things down. Solidified hot glue is almost nothing when exposed to those tissues in your body. It's mass, but not really 'unbreakable' mass.
    B - What's IN the hot glue sticks? They aren't exactly made to be ingested or exposed to body internals.


    *very guilty of not using medical-grade superglue to close injuries. I have no idea how much difference it would make, but in any case, the point being... yes, it's good stuff. No, it's not good for inside of you. >~<

    The Wiki is a great place to get started.



    Also, first post. Hello all ^^
  • ZerbulaZerbula January 2016
    Gold-plated is one that's seen a lot. The hazards with it are that you are dealing with a very thin coating that isn't especially tough.

    If it's scratched upon implanting, It has failed and it will be bad. really bad. It's also not that hard to scratch. 


    Not that it isn't viable, it's something I've heard of being done. But again, newbie. But consensus from what i have seen is that it's not the most ideal setup. simply really not nearly durable enough to be ideal.
  • swolffswolff January 2016
    That was my concern with gold. Any other ideas? I did look at the wiki and saw that sugru won't work either.
  • ZerbulaZerbula January 2016
    It's something you are putting into your body.

    TiN seems to be among one of the best choices. Really, I haven't seen anything else being as ideal. 

    The issues you deal with are :

    -How Well does it seal
    -How Thick/large is the sealing material
    -How Bio compatable is the material
    -How durable is the material
    -How expensive is the material

    Quality of senses is important. You want a strong magnet. Go with a small N52, the strength is where you will get responsiveness. But the tied in aspect is how much strength are you losing because your coating is thicker and adding mass, reducing pull and muffling strength.

    I'm not intimate with 'N' rating on the strength of magnets. but from what i hear, an N48 isn't nearly as ideal as an N52.
  • swolffswolff January 2016
    Where does one get TiN? And do I just electroplate it on?
  • JohnDoeJohnDoe January 2016
    It is a PVD process I have made a magnetron and I am trying to build a pump atm, @alexsmith is waiting on Chems to test his. Aside from those to options I have tried talking to several companies and none have replied or stop replying when I say the word magnet. So to recap talk to a company build your own PVD chamber or buy from a broker.

    Sincerely,
    John Doe
  • swolffswolff January 2016
    @JohnDoe I'll buy a titanium nitride magnet if I have to buy a pre-coated magnet. Where can I get the cheapest? My whole thing is doing it myself or spending the least amount of money on *quality* parts.  Thanks for the information andI hope you get your chamber up and running soon.
  • JohnDoeJohnDoe January 2016
    @swolff
    Alexsmith is the only one I know is selling magnets atm, and for what its worth my chamber is a pickle jar and my magnetron is a speaker that I cut up when I was taking apart a TV. My point is if you look at it from simplest terms rocket science is just basic algebra. (Not really but you get the point)
  • ZerbulaZerbula January 2016
    https://dangerousthings.com/





    Currently Out of stock, however, BUT I think they are forecasting a few months before they have their hands on something. They aren't gone forever.

    If NOTHING else, this is a good place to get a little information on the nature of TiN coating. https://dangerousthings.com/shop/m31-implantable-disc-magnet/ specifically.

    I am also looking for a pair of these. But waiting time. v-v



    I absolutely refuse to settle for anything less than a very stable and robust construction done by someone who knows what they are doing (by extension, not myself. >~<). I'm hesitant to try myself out of lack of time to dedicate to it, and I'm extremely particular on quality control. That's my own preference. But all research done, to be unbiased and make a reasonable suggestion beyond my own personal perfectionism, you REALLY don't want to botch the coating. These magnets are toxic without their coating, and the materials will fall apart. <br />
    Rejection is unideal by itself, and can still happen even provided having a perfect magnet that was completely inert. There is no need to add more failure points.



    Definitely take your time to figure out perfection with this if you are going to be doing it. ^^
  • chironexchironex January 2016
    Ya this is how you get yourself killed. Don't be a fool. Either wait till an m31 is available or at worst find a paralyene coated magnet but for the love of fuck don't use hotglue, sugru, or pretty much anything that you can easily buy. This isn't something that you can skimp on. You are doing actual surgery and if you are stupid about it, at best you'll lose a hand. This is not a DIY project, end of story. Most people lack both the expertise and the materials and equipment to coat something properly, yourself definitely included. I built a titanium nitride coating machine but it took months to get it working and even still it doesn't work properly and I've been making vacuum systems for years and already had most of the equipment. Your best bet is to wait for something nice to come on the market which looks like it'll be happening soon. So be patient
  • TheGreyKnightTheGreyKnight January 2016
    Trust me. A PVD system isn't something to fool around with. And why would you need a magnetron @JohnDoe ?
  • swolffswolff January 2016
    Thank you all for the quick replies. I guess I will be buying a pre-coated magnet, because as @chironex pointed out, I have not had experience building these types of systems. I appreciate the help from everyone. When the m31 is back in stock, I'll snag one. Thanks again!
    --Sam


  • JohnDoeJohnDoe January 2016
    All of my research has called the device a sputtering magnetron. All it is is a pole pice in a ring magnet, that is the part that you set what ever you are wanting to use as a coating on and apply HV. This works by taking ions from the material to be coated and depositing them on the object getting coated. I will not be implanting the first one I make, I do plan to test the hell out of them before I implant.
  • TheGreyKnightTheGreyKnight January 2016
    What are you using for your voltage source? I'd be interested if you could document your set up in another thread. Maybe some pictures.
  • JohnDoeJohnDoe January 2016
    I will I just got the vacuum blues atm, I am trying to do this for all less than100$, most of my ideas a re clever and resourceful I am stuck on a low cost alternative to silicon oil. Any ideas?

    Edit:
    My best idea atm is DOT 5.1 break fluid. Don't worry I am not going to be using it in a diffusion pump.
  • swolffswolff February 2016
    What about electroplated stainless? Stainless steel is used in many medical implants, and if I electroplate a relatively thick coating on, I would think that would work. Any thoughts? 
    Edit: I know its pretty difficult, but I have lots of lab experience. I am 99% sure I can do it, and if it turns out I can't, I won't risk it. 
  • JohnDoeJohnDoe February 2016
    How are you planning on testing the coating before implanting?
  • BenbeezyBenbeezy February 2016
    1) if you are going to do this get a better magnet.
    2) dont do it

    I have 2 magnets in the side of my hand that have been very happy for about 2 months now. They have been coated in this stuff and checked to make sure the coating was complete. 
  • swolffswolff February 2016

    @JohnDoe To test my coating, I am going to plate two or more
    magnets (as many as needed for testing, and a final one for implanting). As said by Adam Savage, “The difference
    between screwing around and science is writing it down.” So, based on that, I
    will record my procedure for every magnet I plate. After I finished plating a
    magnet, I will take a scratch test to determine the thickness and drop the
    magnet from about 2 ft. to make sure it isn't too brittle. After I get a good
    result, I will repeat the steps taken for the best result to produce the magnet
    that will be implanted (obviously, I won't be scratching or dropping this one).



    @Benbeezy I will have to look into that stuff. If the
    stainless steel doesn't work out, I will definitely give that a try.

  • JohnDoeJohnDoe February 2016
    There are chemical that will allow you to test for what's called pin holeing, when the coating cools it shrinks leaving small pin holes in the coating. You need something that will react with the magnet but not the Stainless. Just my thoughts....
  • swolffswolff February 2016
    @JohnDoe I will look into that. Do you think the stainless steel is an acceptable choice for a coating though?
  • JohnDoeJohnDoe February 2016
    Honestly I have no idea.... But in my opinion there is a difference between a scalpel and a biocoating, the thing is a scalpel will not be staying in you body and a biocoating is so it won't come out. My only issue with stainless steel is that it contains chrome. I have experience in welding and it as always been said to never weld chrome with out good ventilation and a fresh air mask.

    Sincerely,
    John Doe
  • _mz_o___mz_o__ February 2016
    As far as I understand stainless steel is a basic biocompatible material (used for piercings), however, the stainless steel will interfere with the magnetic fields, and furthermore, the coating process would probably damage the magnet. So it's not a viable magnet coating.
  • swolffswolff February 2016
    Well, I guess it doesn't matter anyway, because I just found out you can't electroplate anything with stainless steel. Looks like I'm at plan b with Benbeezy's epoxy. But thanks for your help guys. Also, JohnDoe, don't weld galvanized steel either. I have some experience in welding too. :D
  • ZerbulaZerbula February 2016
    @swolff

    Eager to see what happens with it. ^^

    Hopefully m31's are going to be floating about soon, if you are looking for an ideal magnet, they are still the most ideal magnet I've found myself throughout looking around...


    Hmm... Carbon... idea, and I think someone was already developing something for this. Perhaps growing a crystalline structure of some variety around one? A layer of diamond would be ridiculously strong. Or even something less intense but still solid may be good. ^^
  • TheGreyKnightTheGreyKnight February 2016
    Well, @chironex is working on making a diamond coating machine. 
  • JohnDoeJohnDoe February 2016
    How is he handling the pressure?
  • swolffswolff February 2016
    That sounds ridiculously expensive...
  • ZerbulaZerbula February 2016
    Love watching @Chironex work on things, he bounces between things like I do. Except with more cool things x_x

    I would imagine one would just need some kind of pressure chamber to create the ideal atmosphere. I've seen production of man-made diamonds, it doesn't look like the process is impossible to modify or replicate... But just my little guesses.
  • chironexchironex February 2016
    it's done in a vacuum so very little pressure. I have everything to do it I'm just preoccupied with the supercaps. Been painting plates and testing things. I'll get back to it after bodyhacking con.
  • JohnDoeJohnDoe February 2016
    How are you making diamonds in a vacuum?
  • ZerbulaZerbula February 2016
    Equally as interested now... Aren't the two things you need form diamonds heat and pressure? Or is there a chemical process utilized to synthesize the diamonds formation? c_c
  • chironexchironex February 2016
    it's chemical. in the vacuum chamber there are two hot tungsten filaments. You add a mixture of ethanol vapour and hydrogen.As the ethanol hits the filaments it's splits into elemental carbon and other organics. The hydrogen is highly reducing so only the most stable forms remain stable. So anything between the filaments will get coated in a layer of diamond. If you add boron to the ethanol you'll get boron doped diamond which is black and conductive. 
  • ZerbulaZerbula February 2016
    That's insane. :D

    It's a full on 'diamond' diamond, like, the same type one would expect on a ring or as the abrasive in a cut off machine's diamond wheel?

    And I'm guessing its just fine tuning and assembling of the pieces which are why this isn't huge right now. And other projects. Is this something your going to be exploring/developing further?

    I've never heard of this before, ever. Granted, I haven't really looked, but wasn't aware diamonds could be formed like this, either. X_X (*Ignorant American v-v)

     
  • chironexchironex February 2016
    Ya I've already got most of the system built. I'm just preoccupied. There isn't even much fine tuning, it's all very well described in the literature. 
  • JohnDoeJohnDoe February 2016
    I have heard of CVD diamonds but figured they were either high end lab type experiments or were internet rumors.
  • ZerbulaZerbula February 2016
    ^^ Will be watching @Chironex. Thanks so much for the info.
  • ThomasEgiThomasEgi February 2016
    I've seen diamond growing apparatus in action in real life. It's done with MPCVD (microwave plasma chemical vapor deposition).
    In a nutshell: powerful magnetron=> waveguide=>big metallic ellipsoid (focal point 1). and in the 2nd focal point you have your substrate and gas and whatnot. 
    The good news: the process works really well. The not so good news: You fire a lot of microwave radiation at it so expect it to get somewhat warm.
    The bad news: requires so much energy you best ask your local energy supplier for a special contract.
    The really bad news: what you grow is polycristalline diamond. Which is nothing like the regular diamond you know. Monocrystalline diamond has softer and harder crystal orientations so you can cut and polish them using the harder orientations to work through softer ones. With polycristalline you get the hard stuff... everywhere. So the only way to process it at all is by using diamond-dust and grind it for weeks and month 24/7. Anything else will fail miserably. You can literally spend a lifetime trying to put a scratch in that stuff, with no success whatsoever.
    Btw, there are many awesome uses for diamonds grown. Aside from being pretty they have crazy physical properties. Super hard, very heat conductive (forget copper or silver in comparison) etc.
  • chironexchironex February 2016
    There are lots of ways to grow diamonds. What you've describes is only one method. I've seen it done with nothing but a hot filaments in person, it was a tiny little device. Also you can adjust the parameters to get different forms of diamond. Diamond is cool although a lot of effort to get nice coatings as you said. You can find a lot of the same properties in stuff like graphene which is much more readily available.
  • ZerbulaZerbula February 2016
    Biocompatable, I'm assuming? :3


    I'm guessing it's because of variables... but why isn't this used yet for implants yet? I can see material and time constraints (as far as the generation of material being unideal/expensive in regards to resources), but other than that, is there any other threshold or limit to it? or is it still just in it's infancy and development for this application, or do the resources make it complicated.

    Because provided being formed right, like everyone else says... Sorry if I'm being a parrot at this point. But it sounds perfect, or at the least a very ideal coating.

    Assuming different methods could easily generate different ultimate results. possible to use them in a binary system to cover one another's faults as well, or generate composite layers with additional properties? The prospect of running two different coating methods only adds to complexity. but it might also fill in gaps or allow for vastly larger ability


    In any case, curiosity is watching.
  • JohnDoeJohnDoe February 2016
    Could this be used as a biocompatible wire?
  • RytcdRytcd February 2016
    Seems to me that in most cases, you would want your wires to be insulated, so what you really want is a biocompatible wire coating, which could just be silicone, which is already widely used in wire insulation. If not, you could always just use gold wire, which they have.
  • ElectricFeelElectricFeel February 2016
    The issue with wire runs is that you want your embedded thing to match to your body, and wire is fundamentally incompatible. Wire cannot stretch and shrink with muscle movement, and therefore putting it along most joints or muscle paths is out.
    Pocketing is also the development of light scar tissue around your object (leading to the difference between bio-compatible and bio-integrable).
    Also, have you ever had a package with one of those rip-strips, that's a layer of plastic under the cardboard that you pull to tear? Picture that; but your arm.
  • RytcdRytcd February 2016
    "Wire cannot stretch and shrink with muscle movement"

    It's been done before. (Mind you, just devil's advocate, I realize there are limitations with bodily wire runs). Try this one, for instance.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlVuIK5wAj0

    ripstrips under the arm...Thanks for that image right before bed T.T
  • CathasachCathasach February 2016
    You really just need the coating to be stretchable if you have it unattached to the wire. It would be something like how bicycle cabling works when run through cable housing. Run it through a small tube instead of having the coating be attached directly to the wire.
  • TheGreyKnightTheGreyKnight February 2016
    The conductor still has to be flexible enough to not resist bending. 
  • JohnDoeJohnDoe February 2016
    What about a tube of silicone that is filled with a conductive liquid, like say saline. (Maybe not the best example) That would solve the problem of a flexible insulater and conducter, then the the issue becomes getting it installed. Getting back to the conductor issue what about the possibility of a gel maybe?

    Sincerely,
    John Doe
  • TheGreyKnightTheGreyKnight February 2016
    On the note of conductive subdermal wiring, I'll just point everyone in this direction: LINK

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