[humour] We should set up a community
  • garethnelsonukgarethnelsonuk December 2015
    We should setup a seasteading community and call it "Wolf 359".

    Then when governments attack it we can name the battle, well...... star trek fans will get it
  • ThomasEgiThomasEgi December 2015
    make it "Bad Wolf 359" so whovians get their share,too.
    Seasteading is an interesting concept. Had fun discussions about it in the past but.. most of it boiled down to quite fancy funding requirements to get the initial platform going. Modular expansion would be less of an issue. Pirates are a big deal tho. Freakwaves,too (if you decide to build only a small version due to limited funding)
    If you were to get serious with it, i could provide potential locations and tips on construction.
  • garethnelsonukgarethnelsonuk December 2015
    Could also call it "Mother base" and get metal gear fans in on it.........

    Wasn't a serious idea, see the [humour] tag
  • TheGreyKnightTheGreyKnight December 2015
    Heh. I'd be interested in seeing how significant the benefits of "fresh air" would be in the long term. And whether or not it would be better for the environment as well.
  • MeanderpaulMeanderpaul December 2015
    Um I'm game for this even if it is originally a joke. can you say hydrogen fuel
  • JohnDoeJohnDoe December 2015
    Does the Hindenburg ring any bells or Jonestown? But really how safe would hydrogen full be? That's also your only land at sea....
  • ElectricFeelElectricFeel December 2015
    I can say hydrogen fuel, but what's the point of that?
  • MeanderpaulMeanderpaul December 2015
    I love the idea of hydrogen fuel kinda my little thing. Plus who says things will blow up again @johndoe.

    The Hindenburg was a cocktail of things that could go wrong did go wrong and I think that error could be avoided.

  • trybalwolftrybalwolf December 2015
    Also, the Hindenburg has nothing to do with hydrogen fuel. That's like throwing your hands up in the air the second someone mentions nuclear power due to past events that were "a cocktail of errors". 

    Hydrogen seems like it would work pretty well, though being at sea I would consider renewables like solar, wind, and tidal energies. You could use these renewable energy sources for power to break water down into hydrogen for fuel and also for desalination.
  • ChrisBotChrisBot December 2015
    Floating solar farm... sounds like a plan to me.
  • ThomasEgiThomasEgi December 2015
    As for energy offshore: wind, oceanic currents, tidal, solar.
    As for fresh water: no need to desalinate with tons of electricity. Just heat it (preferably by solar) condense the humid air (cooling water is available in abundance.
    As for food: fish and hydrocultures.
    As for the platform there are considerations to be taken into account. Like you'd probably want to tether it to the ground (preferably on an underwater-mountain). Buoyancy providing elements should be located more than 30m below sea level and the platform itself more than 30m above sea level to provide reasonable protection against rouge waves. Tethering in this fashion will keep the anchoring wires under tension, providing a mostly stable platform even during rough weather. Buoyancy elements could be old pressure-vessels with a added mechanism to keep the inside pressure a few bar over the water pressure to prevent them from collapsing.
    guess technically it's very similar to tension leg platforms used for oil drilling.

    Due to the sheer size it's not something you can easily do it home. Shipyards should have no problem building it in a short amount of time.

    Maybe there are ways to build a living version of it too. Made from sort of trees or so. No expertise on that from my end, would be darn cool tho.

    For supplying important stuff such as medical supplies I'd suggest building carrier drones to fly errands to the next coast. Floatplane types would be an idea. Not exactly difficult to do given today's tech level.
  • _mz_o___mz_o__ December 2015
    Slightly off-topic, but some of these machines here would be useful if there was a big enough ship or we found a deserted island. http://opensourceecology.org/
  • ThomasEgiThomasEgi December 2015
    @_mz_o__ there are no deserted islands. They are all claimed, even if uninhabited. You'd have to find some mountain underwater which reaches high enough to make tethering reasonable (there are many underwater plateaus/mountains ranging -300 to -200m check google earth). You'd also want to remain in an area which is of no interest for other parties (no resources nearby, no pirates, no strategic importance etc). You'd also want to stay within a few hours of flight near a coast.
    The opensourceecology stuff is more interesting onshore. Talking about onshore, how about an underground city in a desert? Condensing drinking water from air (or collecting them with zeolite). Anyone got a few tons of that stuff around? And some nearby desert which is not bombarded due to fights over oil? We can totally name that one vault 111. Walls made from molten sand/glass.
  • MeanderpaulMeanderpaul December 2015
    Can't use 111 we claimed in in mass sorry. I'm personally a fan of humid wet areas instead of dry....

    I'd say the only only threat from pirates would be if your in that kinda area. Personally I think that a "security" team on the colony (yes I'm calling it a colony because it is) would more then likely be enough to deter or at least show it won't be an easy pickings. Obviously if they are more like a small army your screwed.

    One thing I could see happening though is people who leave one and form another quite possibly could cause war just like with countries. Some areas would be more favorable.

    On a side note imagine the advances you could make technology wise and medically not having to be under the same laws that prohibit testing and development based on the "you aren't God!" Or that's wrong. I think it could be like what's shown in tomorrow land where the limit is what you could imagine.
  • ElectricFeelElectricFeel December 2015
    Issue is resources. It's tricky to get Amazon to deliver to 1 OffShore place, at least until they have drones down...
  • ThomasEgiThomasEgi December 2015
    building your own drone and getting amazon delivered to an address onshore should be fairly easy
  • MeanderpaulMeanderpaul December 2015
    Gps coordinates would work for an address. It would have to be an option while ordering
  • ElectricFeelElectricFeel December 2015
    A drone stretch is pretty limited though, VTOL capable drones only have a range of a few dozen miles. The larger drones like the GlobalHawk have 24 hour flight times, but that's not gonna be delivering any kind of package you'd like to be receiving.
  • garethnelsonukgarethnelsonuk December 2015
    I posted this as just a silly pun that came to mind after reading "the transhumanist wager" and watching star trek, and you guys all took it seriously.

    Awesome.
  • ThomasEgiThomasEgi December 2015
    no need for VTOL drones. Steering it into a big catching net offshore, or landing it on a lake should be easy enough. Even parachute landing would be a good option if no lake is available. A scaled down and modernized V1 would provide plenty of payload at low construction cost (cause well it's basically a payload with wings and engine). But then, something with water-landing capability would probably be preferable. If you build a mold for some pu-foam parts, you can build a cheap aluminum reinforced foam aircraft.

    If you like living dangerously, the great meteor seamount may be the right thing to go for. Makes about 2000km to Portugal

    The flamish cap is a bit more to the canadian side of the ocean. St John's on Newfoundland would be the next closest town with about 650km. Bit cooler there, and more fish. I'd expect very few pirates.

    Altho the great tablemount is closer to teneriffa (which is a really sweet place), I'd opt for the flamish cap due to practical reasons.

    As for the drone. Design goal should probably be around 800km range and fast flight to make the trips despite winds. Would probably end up requiring jet engines and a cruise speed of somewhere around 500km/h. Not exactly the super-low budget solution, but possible. A 250km/h with conventional propeller may be an alternative. Basically something like cessna 182. Guess boat-drones would be an option.
  • MeanderpaulMeanderpaul December 2015
    I would probably have to disagree with drones mostly because of the reasons givin. I think the human element can be used for this with a boat for the best results. That would also give a job opportunity which will help overall.
  • ThomasEgiThomasEgi December 2015
    Shipping regular supplies would probably be the best idea. Delivery by air using a drone would only be for the stuff that requires fast delivery, mostly for emergencies (medical supplies, super important replacement parts etc).

    Knowing how difficult it is from living on a tiny island for just a few days, priority should be given to get a self-sustaining platform going (as self sustaining as possible).
    One last thing: internet will probably be horrible and only via sattelite link. Doubt anyone would be willing to toss a few millions worth of fiber optics into the sea.
  • MeanderpaulMeanderpaul December 2015
    Hmm internet would be a problem but I think if you set up a sort of on site database for the "important" stuff you could get by. It would all depend on the type of people you would have on it. Satellite wouldn't be to bad either just have a chance for it to be blocked from weather.

    These are also just luxury types of items that would be nice to have but definitely not needed to have this.
  • Donovan880Donovan880 December 2015
    @Meanderpaul that depends how far offshore you are, you could have line of sight from a pier as I doubt we could build an oil rig type complex so we would be close to "shallow waters" 
  • ThomasEgiThomasEgi December 2015
    there's no real gain from building it in the economic zone. You'd just make yourself a sightseeing attraction. In that case you'r better off building a cave in some desert and call it the mesa complex. Getting internet there should be far easier,too. Anyone got super remotely located desert properties around? Like no nasty people around at all.
  • ChrisBotChrisBot December 2015
    Oh the "Mesa Complex" I like the sound of that. Perhaps a terrestrial endeavour would better prepare us for a more aquatic one. 

    Obviously electricity in the desert is plentiful with solar panels. What about food, hydroponics? Water collection? Maybe we could all just live off soylent. 

    Even delivery of resources would be a little easier. A fleet of solar powered autonomous buggies seem a bit more feasible.
     
    I guess I could get used to the heat....


  • ThomasEgiThomasEgi December 2015
    Water is in the air. You need to condense it (by cooling). Alternatively you put zeolite into the air. There are H2O tailored variants which will suck up the humidity even from pretty darn dry air (type 3A i think). To get it out you just have to put it into an oven to cook it dry. Solar-cooking should be no problem in a desert and the material is cheap and sells by tons (1 to 2 USD /kg).
    So at night, vent your zeolite, at day cook it and condense the steam into water. Not exactly high tech. Once you have water, growing food is pretty straight forward. Long distance wifi for internet is within technical possibilities.
  • JohnDoeJohnDoe December 2015
    I will link to my ideas and proposals:
    Now that we are getting away from water bases, and moving on to other options here you go.:
    a rel="nofollow" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20131124005905/Pirates and weather were a problem at sea level, but what about at 100,000 feet? Plus I have been feeling a little grounded lately.
    Missile silo:
    Lets face it we could easily start a crowd funding and move in. I got dibs on the lowest 2 levels of the missile tube.

    We could also dig our own.

    Mr. Teslonian:
    Just look at his channel. He does a lot of supper relevant R&D....

    I like the idea of a missile silo. God only knows the rockets among many (crazy) things I would build if I had one.*sigh*

    Sincerely,
    John Doe
  • ThomasEgiThomasEgi December 2015
    hm. Digging your own cave isn't exactly difficult. You need hard rock for it to avoid additional support structures. Like granite or gneiss. Take a carbon-arc plasma, pull over the rock and it just falls off when knocked on with the fingers. Biggest problem is finding solid enough rock at surface levels, and getting tons of rocks away from the site (like literally, tons). Of course it's a lot faster to work with explosives but those are highly regulated. Once the rock is cut out in big pieces, cutting it into smaller ones is rather easy. You could sell the cut pieces as pavement, headstones or whatever. Sitting inside a mountain/underground is a bit of a problem tho. Fire is a big danger, ventilation, humidity/excess water. Typically there are no good energy sources nearby either (hydro-power if you are lucky)

    I'd estimate a desert to be the most feasible of all those crazy ideas so far. Once someone build a solar oven big enough to cook a few tons of zeolite each day, so we can have whirlpools. And i forgot to mention, same zeolite can be used for heating, cooling and air-drying too!
  • ElectricFeelElectricFeel December 2015
    Why not just build concrete sub-structures, like the bunkers of ye old colde war?
    Hell or even bury 12ft corrugated pipe?
  • ThomasEgiThomasEgi December 2015
    you can do that, but they need to be bought/build/transported, put in place and maintained. Carve a dining room into granite and it'll remain there for a few thousand years to come.
  • MeanderpaulMeanderpaul December 2015
    I wouldn't worry about fire. That's easy each room is a compartment so it won't travel. Vents have dampers to shut on fire so it will get suffocated before it even gets strong enough to spread. The person inside will probably die but the base is safe.
  • MeanderpaulMeanderpaul December 2015
    Oh and explosives is easy lets just say you have explosives if you hunt or do shooting sports.

    Please don't get mad fed gov ;)
  • JohnDoeJohnDoe December 2015
    @Menderpaul
    Its called triternite right? You know that stuff some people shoot at then it goes KA-BOOM.

    I like the idea of using plasma to melt the rock away. If we do carve it out of granite we could sell the granite as counter tops or make it easier on us and sell it as a slab. Maybe even turn a profit. You said just get rid of it you didn't say how....
  • MeanderpaulMeanderpaul December 2015
    Close tannerite. That or just gunpowder/black powder/smokes less it really doesn't matter add pressure and a contain=boom again go away Feds :)
  • JohnDoeJohnDoe December 2015
    "again go away Feds :)" I wrote a entire rant about that. (In your favour) but do to past events in my life I am a little scared to post it.=P

    So how would we get water from a desert cave bunker base and how to power the lights at night? For the sake of bringing this thread back on topic.

    Sincerely,
    John Doe
  • ThomasEgiThomasEgi December 2015
    bit of gunpowder to toy around or blast some tree trunks is one thing, getting hands on truckloads of that stuff to actually make granite unhappy is a whole different story. Building a carbon-arc plasma torch on the other hand is pretty darn easy. A hydrogen-flame would work too, even tho it can be a bit risky to handle that safely.

    Guess desert caves are mostly dry, so you won't get water from the cave.
    Option one: cool some objects down to -15°C, the air in contact will cool down, the water will condense and you'll get ice on the surface. For extreme death-valley conditions about 1 gram of ice per m³ air. Of course, this requires a lot of energy and a lot of expensive industrial cooling equipment.
    Option two: (i repeat myself here), gently blow air through containers filled with zeolite 3A. The water molecules will be physically bound inside the material. Numbers range from 10 to 25% of the zeolite's weight (and it is cheap!). Once you got enough water bound in the zeolite, you bring it up to 250°C for like, 4 hours or so. The water will evaporate and you can use desert-air-temperatures to condense it.
    Even if your yield is not quite the 20% of zeolite's maximum capability due to going with shorter than optimum cycles, you can still get out alot of water per cycle per ton. Even for crazy low 2%, that's still 20 liter/ton. Since it's a physical process it's fully reversible and the materials do not wear. No harmful chemical, no mechanically challenging parts, and can be all solar powered. Just pumping cold air through your granulate, and after that, a lot of hot air.

    About powering: Daytime: solar powered steam turbine (or regular steam engine) / solar panels (altho expensive). Maybe some vertical axis wind turbines for aux power just for fun (and easy to build). For just lighting the current demands are rather low. A good bank of cycle-proof lead batteries will do a great job. My 7 Watt Led lamp runs all night on a lead battery weighting less than 3kg (which I got off ebay for cheap).
    Few old car/truck batteries should serve well. If you get some old car batteries you can run a laptop and lights for days. A high-performance PC under full load will require a tad more, but nothing that wouldn't fit under your bed.
    The energy yard with all the mirrors and wind turbines hacked together should look pretty darn sweet.
  • ElectricFeelElectricFeel December 2015
    I would vote for a geothermal plant heating and cooling, and power if someone has a cool million to spare. Geothermal is 24 hour reliable power with almost no maintenance.
  • ThomasEgiThomasEgi December 2015
    Geothermal requires you to drill deep, depending on your location, pretty deep and if you aim for high power output, really quite deep. With tons of tubing, pumps, liquid systems it does require quite some maintainance to operate reliably. Sure it's 24/7 power output. But we'r talking about desert atm, you can't complain about a lack of sunshine most of the time. Geothermal on a budget would be a cool project tho. Like some sort of rock-smashing self-digging mechanism which doesn't require a drill rig.
    Btw, about heating and cooling, you get that for free with zeolite. For heating just sprinkle water over the dried zeolite and it'll release a lot of heat, for cooling have a water vessel next to it, water will rapidly evaporate and cool down (if you pump out the air first you can freeze the water almost instantly)
  • MeanderpaulMeanderpaul December 2015
    A lot of deserts have some form or another of underground water like sinotes (Myan water wells) depending on how large of a cave your looking at whether it's going deep or not will not be dry most have water or at least condensation. They are actually humid in them and a lot either had or have had water running through them. Perhaps finding an underground river could be useful for underground water turbine.

    @thomasegi how'd you know I'd use it on tree trunks and such lol.
  • ThomasEgiThomasEgi December 2015
    True about the underground water systems. Point is you have to find them. While running your own water-from-air system will work anywhere, no search, no digging. Just deploy the solar oven and get going.
    So water can be done with a few thousand bucks for zeolite and steel containers to cook it.
    Next up: building material. We'll probably have sand and water available, given we don't get super lucky to sit on sandstone/granite for a cave. I have seen people using giant fresnel lenses to melt glas into sand sculptures. I sort of doubt this is will work out to build structurally sound buildings. Alternatives would be stacking bags of sand (with some cement mixed in?). http://www.earthhomesnow.com/sandbag-houses.htm seems to be quite a good idea. Bags shouldn't be horribly expensive. Thick walls should help against the heat. So if the walls are strong enough, it may be a good idea to just put a lot of sand over it. Sand-iglu , sort of.
  • MeanderpaulMeanderpaul December 2015
    You may not even need to make the structures you could carve/cut each unit to fit. The only thing you would need to do it make doors. This is assuming you place in a cave surrounded by solid stone.

    Give a quick Google search of: Cappadocia Underground Cities

    A large cavern would be the only way to really make the sand-igloos.
  • ThomasEgiThomasEgi December 2015
    Yeah those are world famous. But I was planning to be rather resource independent for the desert thing. Caves require solid rocks which aren't available everywhere and may require digging through sand/sediments first.
  • ChrisBotChrisBot December 2015
    How feasible would mud bricks be? Depending on the desert we go to (assuming an unspoken agreement on the SoCal, other thoughts?), that would seem quite nice. Just need quite a bit of water initally. Perhaps sand bags first and then bricks, work our way up?
  • MeanderpaulMeanderpaul December 2015
    I was using those caves as an example of compartments to be made. Caverns would be the only way to accomplish the building using blocks or bags. Do you if you want to stay underground you will need ribbing and ways to secure everything which will end up being quite dependent for resources be it concrete or wood (preferably concrete). Your best bet woul be the looking for ledge and granit because it creates walls that require less securing to use but the turn around would be harder to work.

    At that point a silo would be the best bet. It's already got multiple sections and goes deep. That might also be a good way to at least start so you are already at depth.

    What about getting a large 100ft hole dug and cleared build a solid foundation with multiple levels and just fill in over then build the internals ounces it's been finished being filled? Basicly just bunker style.
  • ThomasEgiThomasEgi December 2015
    Possible but expensive compared to sandbags. We are onshore because we are on a budget. To escape the extreme temperatures going just a few meters underground is completely enough. No need to increase problems by digging deep down unless you have to.
  • JohnDoeJohnDoe December 2015
    Why not buy a Alaskan island? That's is about as far from society as we can possibly get.
    http://www.privateislandsonline.com/areas/alaska?page=1 It comes out to about the same after you figure transport of materials and equipment and as needed labor. Plus we will fit in a strange way....
  • ThomasEgiThomasEgi December 2015
    Bonus points for pretty nature at summer and ice-skating at winter. Unless we have a good plan to get plenty of energy on such a smallish island that's a no-go. No use sitting somewhere in a lake with no heating, light, etc.
  • MeanderpaulMeanderpaul December 2015
    Gasifier for energy plenty of wood for fuel same with heat wood stoves work EXTREMELY well.

    Wind power too you have some good wind speeds up there
  • JohnDoeJohnDoe December 2015
    I think it is worth mentioning that we are reaching a ethical/self presentation point here, everyone remember Johnstown? While I know that no one here will flip out if the world views them as crazy, I for one don't want to have fed trouble because they think that were going crazy. We know were not crazy the question is how do we show them (feds) were not? I think we should try and make it look like were not there or like were doing some sort of isolation research or something that people look at for a second and move on.

    Sincerely,
    John Doe
  • ThomasEgiThomasEgi December 2015
    I'm not sold on burning a forest. It'd work for a small number of people but not a bigger group. At least not without significant impact on your environment. Wind isn't exactly reliable (both in terms of availability and reliability of the equipment in the given conditions. Ice on the turbines can be quite a problem, and a danger). With access to a river and thus hydro-power, that'd make things a lot easier to work with. Even if there are issues at low temperatures and freezing stuff. Unless you go hunting you'll need a lot of electricity for hydro-culturing.

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