Legal issues
  • garethnelsonukgarethnelsonuk September 2015
    Hi all

    I'm wondering if anyone has a good primer of the legal issues related to grinding and implants in particular.

    From what I gather, putting an implant in someone else, even with consent, might be classed as assault if you're not licensed in some form - but is a piercing license sufficient for more complex devices?

    How about selling implants? Is it a simple matter of using lots of disclaimers like @amal does at dangerousthings or for more complex devices is there something more that must be done?

    I know that devices for medical use always require regulatory agency approval (FDA in the US, MHRA in the UK - equivalent in other countries) which involves testing for safety and effectiveness but what about devices with purely practical usage and no medical benefits?

    Before anyone says it, I know it's a bad idea to take legal advice from a forum like this and would seek proper counsel if I was to start selling anything myself (something I don't intend to do for a long time anyway).
  • amalamal September 2015
    Hi @garethnelsonuk

    Assault is not accurate. It is only assault without consent. It's similar to rape... consent must be given and sustained throughout the procedure. The easiest way to prove this is to simply record the entire thing from start to finish, starting with a series of questions like;

    - Do you want me to inject this transponder into your hand?

    - Do you give your consent to allow me to inject this transponder into your hand?

    - Do you understand the short and long term risks involved and take full personal responsibility for those risks?

    Now, doing this as a friend for free, along with these questions, and recording the entire procedure, and then maybe asking if they are happy with the result... all that gives you some legal protections... however if you are charging a fee for such "services" then an entirely different legal framework comes crashing down on you...

    - you're conducting business without a business license

    - as a business there are requirements such as, perhaps, a piercing license, and also the board of health requirements for piercers then apply...

    - piercers have legal statutes levied upon then which dictate exactly what is and is not acceptable for a piercer to perform and/or materials and jewelry they are allowed to work with... all based on geography which can range from as local as a city ordinance to a state level board of health.

    it gets really complicated... but it's not illegal for one friend to, say, cut another friend's arm with a knife if that friend was consenting to it... who knows, it might be sex play... and that's all legal.

    When it comes to selling, it's a bit more grey... if you are not making false claims or making medical claims, and you are not giving "medical advice", and you are posting CYA statements like I have, then still you are on the risky side of "interpretation of the law".

    Laws are not clear... no matter how many pages they take up, it is all interpreted by the courts. In the US, "case law" helps speed this process along by pointing to past cases which match, in principle, your case specifics, and the arrived at conclusion of the interpretation of law in that case will then carry extremely heavy weight in your case... but in all cases there is some level of interpretation which means you must rely more heavily the opinions of others than on the written law regarding such subjects... and right now biohackers are still freaks and the opinions of others will likely not fall in your favor.

    When it comes to FDA approval, body jewelry is not FDA approved because it is not a medical device. I just said laws are not clear, and in many cases current "digital health" devices are skirting that grey area.. but when it comes to biohacker devices most are clearly non-medical... there are 3 clear rules for what determine a device to be "medical" in nature and require FDA approval for sale in the US.. can't find the link but fda.gov has it... go find it and read up on it.

    We could have easily gotten FDA approval for our x-series implants, however we chose not to because getting our devices classified as "FDA approved" would introduce further legal issues for piercers wanting to install our products... it would be easy to see why/how a judge or jury might point to an xNT tag and say "well it's FDA approved so it's a medical device and a piercer has no business putting that into someone, only doctors should deal with medical devices"... so we chose to keep it out of that realm.

    Hope this helps.

    Amal
  • MeanderpaulMeanderpaul September 2015
    Amal nailed this on the head only thing I could add is to just jump on you local laws and fed law sites and read up on it regarding body art as that could fall under that too.

    If I have time I'll look into the law but I need a bit of info from you.

    Location: state,county, what ever it is classified in the UK
    What you are wondering about doing/looking for ( as in person implanting or selling).

    Also I'm NOT a lawyer or live in the UK all I am doing is posting the link to the specific laws I find and what I interpreted it as AGAIN IM NOT A LAWYER.

    If you'd like send me a message or post in the forum the information. I'll post what I find.
  • garethnelsonukgarethnelsonuk September 2015
    I'm not looking for specific advice here, if I wanted specific advice i'd ask the actual authorities or a solicitor.

    But for what it's worth, i'm based in North Wales (don't like to be more specific than that in a public post).

    If I was to offer anything commercially it'd be selling devices for implantation by other people. My wife has also said she'd possibly get an xNT and get me to install it but that's as far as i'd go in terms of implanting in other people myself.
  • MeanderpaulMeanderpaul September 2015
    That's fine I probably wouldn't post much more either lol.

    while bouncing around on the gov site I dug up a couple things regarding sale of items that may or may not help you.

    -----------

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/section/15

    Installation of goods by the person selling the

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/section/29

    Risk of seller selling the item to you
    Section 29 subsection 2 (a)(b)

    Definitions

    Goods "any tangible moveable items".

    Trader means " a person acting for purposes relating to that persons business or trade."

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/contents

    For the directory on trade and goods.
    -------------

    I'll try and look more specific if you have any more info for what your looking to do but I would look into the good section if you want to sell items.

    What I gathered is you are responsible for what you are selling until the transaction is complete and the buyer has the items. Also you are responsible for the installation of said item if you market it as part of the sale.

    Hope that helps

    :)
  • SivmattSivmatt September 2015
    what they don't know won't hurt them ( or us ) ...
    just saying ^^

    not cautionning of course ... but still saying >_>
    :P
  • garethnelsonukgarethnelsonuk October 2015
    @Sivmatt
    That is a really silly approach to any legal issue if you enjoy your freedom and are dealing with other people.

  • garethnelsonukgarethnelsonuk October 2015
    @Meanderpaul
    Thanks for doing that research, but I was thinking about the legal issues involved with implants in particular, i'm quite familiar with the laws around trade in general as i've run businesses in the past and been a company director.

    I imagine there are extra liabilities involved with anything that goes inside the body and i've recently been pondering possibly selling devices based around my edison project after development if it works out in myself.
  • MeanderpaulMeanderpaul October 2015
    Not a problem I wish I could have found more on actual implanting. What I did notice is the piercing laws are based on your area (mostly).